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73 Challenger 340 AT doesn't seem to have the power I think it should

Sparkey

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The previous owner had rebuilt the motor & has done some changes to it.
He put in Silv-O-Lite pistons that look to be 10.2 compression.
Also Comp Cams Extreme Energy Cam & Lifter kit # CL20-223-3 (Advertise duration 268 int / 280 exh Lift with factory rocker ratio = 0.477 int / 0.480 exh) He called it a lumpy cam.
Also Speedmaster aluminum heads part # PCE281.2146 w/ 2.02" Intake / 1.620" Exhaust
It has a Holley model 4160 600cfm square bore carb on an adapter plate on the stock spread bore intake manifold. I already know that the carb is too small.

My research tells me the stock carb was a Thermoquad 6319 800cfm.

The car runs and goes pretty good but nothing like what I remember my stock 70 Cuda 340 AT.

Any suggestions on what direction I should head?
I am figuring I should start by getting rid of the Holly carb and adapter and going back to the stock Thermoquad.
 

moparleo

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What gears are in the diff ? Lower than 3.54 will put a lot in the seat of the pants performance. Do you have access to a tuner shop in the area with a chassis dyno ? Just changing the carb is not a good way to diagnose what may not be a problem. Every thing was bigger and badder in my memories. Not always was it real.
 

quapman

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Ignition?
Timing?

I would try an AVS before a Thermoquad. The TQ is a great carb, but the AVS will be easier to set up and tune. Edelbrock calls them their "Thunder" carb now.
 

Sparkey

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What gears are in the diff ? Lower than 3.54 will put a lot in the seat of the pants performance. Do you have access to a tuner shop in the area with a chassis dyno ? Just changing the carb is not a good way to diagnose what may not be a problem. Every thing was bigger and badder in my memories. Not always was it real.
I checked the ratio this morning. The tag on the dif says 3.23 but when I turned the drive shaft it only went about 1.66 turns to 1 turn on the tire.
 

Sparkey

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What gears are in the diff ? Lower than 3.54 will put a lot in the seat of the pants performance. Do you have access to a tuner shop in the area with a chassis dyno ? Just changing the carb is not a good way to diagnose what may not be a problem. Every thing was bigger and badder in my memories. Not always was it real.
I forgot to tell you in my previous response that there are no dyno shops near me
 

Sparkey

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Ignition?
Timing?

I would try an AVS before a Thermoquad. The TQ is a great carb, but the AVS will be easier to set up and tune. Edelbrock calls them their "Thunder" carb now.
Thanks for the carb info. I will keep the AVS in mind if I decide to change the carb.
I haven't had time to check the timing yet. I'll let you know next week what I find.
When you asked about ignition do you mean distributor stock or not?
 

Sparkey

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Points? Electronic? MSD?
I found some time this morning. The timing is about 12 degrees or a little more (almost hidden) BTDC with the vacuum hose disconnected.
There is a Mopar electronic ignition box mounted on the fire wall. The coil looks stock.
I took a few pics for you.

20180922_093049.jpg


20180922_093105.jpg


20180922_093129.jpg
 

340challconvert

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Thought this was worthwhile feedback and a good read on the low compression 340 courtesy of a member from another forum I follow (tricky lugnuts) from about 13 years ago;

Just rebuilt my 1972 340 over the summer and it runs great now -- meaning I have been happy with its performance, economy, and street manners. I am no expert, but here are some of the things I've learned.
The compression ratio was dropped from 10.5 to 1 in 1968-71 340s, I believe, to 8.5 to 1 in 1972. Quite a significant drop that a head gasket change alone will not recover. Do you like buying new pistons or milling heads? All compression ratios were dropping at the time, though. (The 426 was no longer available, so what does that tell you?) Mopar held on longer than most of the others.
Most 1972 340s also have a cast crankshaft and cast pistons, instead of the forged ones used in 1968 to 1971 340s. The heads on 1972-73 340s do have smaller intake valves also, 1.88 inch as opposed to 2.02 inch, though the 1972 heads ('J') are essentially the same and can be machined to easily accept the larger valves. Valve size is a compromise, at best, between larger valves for better high end operation, i.e. maximum flow at top speeds, and smaller valves for better throttle response, i.e. low-end torque and acceleration.
My good buddy is a mechanic and a mopar nut -- has been for at least two decades -- and his biggest gripe against the 1972 and later 340s is the cast crank and cast pistons. But, theoretically, at least, they should be lighter than forged ones and thus rotate quicker, but just not be as strong -- at least that's what I've read.
Also, 1972 and later 340s came with electronic ignition. My buddy likes forged cranks and pistons, adjustable rockers and solid lifters, and high compression ratios, and also dual breaker points -- but he doesn't drive his car everyday like I do in the appropriate months of the year. My 340 got my Charger to California and back, from Ohio, without a single tune up.
I rebuilt mine with Sealed Power pistons and rings (I think that was the brand, off the top of my head) and kept the stock compression ratio of 8.5 to 1. It runs just fine up any hill on 87 octane with the timing set conservatively, and with 93 octane I can advance the timing and get it to squawk the tires when it hits second gear, though I like to richen the mixture as I advance the timing.
I also kept the smaller intake valves (but had hardened seats installed) and stock exhaust and intake manifolds and reinstalled the stock windage tray. I Put in a reproduction camshaft for the 1968-71 340, and it has good throttle response at all RPMs, especially with the kickdown properly adjusted, and will easily cruise well above 100 mph with my 3.23 gears. Has a great idle and plenty of vaccuum for the power breaks and the heater box controls. And it gets almost 17 mpg on the highway with the right driving conditions. I also put in a new torque converter, essentially stock, and that is a critical piece as the 1972-73 340s with a cast crankshaft are externally balanced with the converter and damper.
Wish I had some drag strip numbers to pass on to you, or some dynamometer numbers -- but I am not a rich fellow. Speed costs, how fast do you want to go? And of course, going fast then breaks things. The performance of a 340 will also depend on what you put it in, i.e. is it an A, B, or E body at stock weight, or has it been lightened. Mine is in a stock weight B body -- not a good combination for racing, because of the weight, according to Mopar Performance. But it sounds good, runs good, burns rubber, and scares most of the stoplight racers around here from trying anything and surprises a good number of those that do. It's also a hell of a lot lighter and less nose heavy than my buddy's 1971 with a 440.
As the other fellows have said, tuning makes a big difference (in any carbureted car), and I am confident that my 1972 340, even in essentially stock condition, will outrun a 1971 or earlier 340 so long as mine is tuned better than his, despite the smaller intake valves and lower compression ratio.
The 1972 340 was factory rated at 240 net horsepower (at 4,800 RPM) and 290 foot pounds of torque (at 3,600 RPM), as opposed to 275 gross horsepower for the 1968-71 340s (at 5,000 RPM) and 340 foot pounds of torque (at 3,200 RPM) and 290 gross horsepower for the six-pack engines.

In general:

Gross (theoretical output) horsepower minus frictional losses within the engine equals Net horsepower (measured at crankshaft) which, minus frictional losses in the transmission equals Shaft horsepower, which, minus frictional losses in the driveshaft, differential, axles, and wheel bearings equals True horsepower.

If I were you I'd throw some quality headers on it and play with the tuning of the carb and timing, if anything, first. Make sure your ignition system is good. I didn't go the header route because they can be such a freaking nuisance. Play with the top end next -- i.e. intake manifold, headers, cam -- or pull your cylinder heads and have them milled slightly to raise the compression and gone through with the larger intake valves installed. Spend lesser amounts of money on things you'll be able to and want to reuse (headers, intake manifold, distributor) should you tear into the lower end and raise the compression ratio with new pistons. I assume you're like me and not made of money and can't just drop it off at the machine shop and tell them to build you a high compression forged piston and crank 450 horse small block -- otherwise you'd have already done that. I was slightly disappointed with the performance of my 340 until I got the kickdown linkage properly adjusted. That three-- one downshift can be fun, fun, fun. If you're feeling really evil (so far as the health of your 340 is concerned), take advantage of that lower compression ration and install a nitrous kit, or supercharge it if you've got the big bucks. I'd still take the time to put in some quality cylinder head studs if I were to do that, though. A 150 horse nitrous kit will more than compensate for the 35 horsepower difference in the factory rating -- which, as I hope you noticed, is also different from gross to net. Just don't rev it up over 6,000 RPM in stock form. That's my advice.
Dino2 (1).gif
 

moparleo

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:thumbsup:Mostly true information there. Still depends on what kind of performance you are looking for. Stop light to stoplight ?
Go with low gears. But if you want to cruise the interstate, keep the gears you have. I agree on the carb. The Edelbrock AVS Thunderer carb will bolt right up to the stock intake manifold and is very easy to tune. You have the factory electronic ignition. It was a very good ignition and could use a few upgrades like a hi energy ignition box and coil. No adjustments are usually necessary unless the distributor is old and the shaft is loose. Complete ignition kits with a new distributor, ignition box and coil can be had for between $150.$300 depending on brand and performance level. Here are the factory tune-up specs on a stock 70-75 Mopars
1970-75 Dodge Tune-up Specifications
Tuning Tips
 
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Sparkey

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Thought this was worthwhile feedback and a good read on the low compression 340 courtesy of a member from another forum I follow (tricky lugnuts) from about 13 years ago;

Just rebuilt my 1972 340 over the summer and it runs great now -- meaning I have been happy with its performance, economy, and street manners. I am no expert, but here are some of the things I've learned.
The compression ratio was dropped from 10.5 to 1 in 1968-71 340s, I believe, to 8.5 to 1 in 1972. Quite a significant drop that a head gasket change alone will not recover. Do you like buying new pistons or milling heads? All compression ratios were dropping at the time, though. (The 426 was no longer available, so what does that tell you?) Mopar held on longer than most of the others.
Most 1972 340s also have a cast crankshaft and cast pistons, instead of the forged ones used in 1968 to 1971 340s. The heads on 1972-73 340s do have smaller intake valves also, 1.88 inch as opposed to 2.02 inch, though the 1972 heads ('J') are essentially the same and can be machined to easily accept the larger valves. Valve size is a compromise, at best, between larger valves for better high end operation, i.e. maximum flow at top speeds, and smaller valves for better throttle response, i.e. low-end torque and acceleration.
My good buddy is a mechanic and a mopar nut -- has been for at least two decades -- and his biggest gripe against the 1972 and later 340s is the cast crank and cast pistons. But, theoretically, at least, they should be lighter than forged ones and thus rotate quicker, but just not be as strong -- at least that's what I've read.
Also, 1972 and later 340s came with electronic ignition. My buddy likes forged cranks and pistons, adjustable rockers and solid lifters, and high compression ratios, and also dual breaker points -- but he doesn't drive his car everyday like I do in the appropriate months of the year. My 340 got my Charger to California and back, from Ohio, without a single tune up.
I rebuilt mine with Sealed Power pistons and rings (I think that was the brand, off the top of my head) and kept the stock compression ratio of 8.5 to 1. It runs just fine up any hill on 87 octane with the timing set conservatively, and with 93 octane I can advance the timing and get it to squawk the tires when it hits second gear, though I like to richen the mixture as I advance the timing.
I also kept the smaller intake valves (but had hardened seats installed) and stock exhaust and intake manifolds and reinstalled the stock windage tray. I Put in a reproduction camshaft for the 1968-71 340, and it has good throttle response at all RPMs, especially with the kickdown properly adjusted, and will easily cruise well above 100 mph with my 3.23 gears. Has a great idle and plenty of vaccuum for the power breaks and the heater box controls. And it gets almost 17 mpg on the highway with the right driving conditions. I also put in a new torque converter, essentially stock, and that is a critical piece as the 1972-73 340s with a cast crankshaft are externally balanced with the converter and damper.
Wish I had some drag strip numbers to pass on to you, or some dynamometer numbers -- but I am not a rich fellow. Speed costs, how fast do you want to go? And of course, going fast then breaks things. The performance of a 340 will also depend on what you put it in, i.e. is it an A, B, or E body at stock weight, or has it been lightened. Mine is in a stock weight B body -- not a good combination for racing, because of the weight, according to Mopar Performance. But it sounds good, runs good, burns rubber, and scares most of the stoplight racers around here from trying anything and surprises a good number of those that do. It's also a hell of a lot lighter and less nose heavy than my buddy's 1971 with a 440.
As the other fellows have said, tuning makes a big difference (in any carbureted car), and I am confident that my 1972 340, even in essentially stock condition, will outrun a 1971 or earlier 340 so long as mine is tuned better than his, despite the smaller intake valves and lower compression ratio.
The 1972 340 was factory rated at 240 net horsepower (at 4,800 RPM) and 290 foot pounds of torque (at 3,600 RPM), as opposed to 275 gross horsepower for the 1968-71 340s (at 5,000 RPM) and 340 foot pounds of torque (at 3,200 RPM) and 290 gross horsepower for the six-pack engines.

In general:

Gross (theoretical output) horsepower minus frictional losses within the engine equals Net horsepower (measured at crankshaft) which, minus frictional losses in the transmission equals Shaft horsepower, which, minus frictional losses in the driveshaft, differential, axles, and wheel bearings equals True horsepower.

If I were you I'd throw some quality headers on it and play with the tuning of the carb and timing, if anything, first. Make sure your ignition system is good. I didn't go the header route because they can be such a freaking nuisance. Play with the top end next -- i.e. intake manifold, headers, cam -- or pull your cylinder heads and have them milled slightly to raise the compression and gone through with the larger intake valves installed. Spend lesser amounts of money on things you'll be able to and want to reuse (headers, intake manifold, distributor) should you tear into the lower end and raise the compression ratio with new pistons. I assume you're like me and not made of money and can't just drop it off at the machine shop and tell them to build you a high compression forged piston and crank 450 horse small block -- otherwise you'd have already done that. I was slightly disappointed with the performance of my 340 until I got the kickdown linkage properly adjusted. That three-- one downshift can be fun, fun, fun. If you're feeling really evil (so far as the health of your 340 is concerned), take advantage of that lower compression ration and install a nitrous kit, or supercharge it if you've got the big bucks. I'd still take the time to put in some quality cylinder head studs if I were to do that, though. A 150 horse nitrous kit will more than compensate for the 35 horsepower difference in the factory rating -- which, as I hope you noticed, is also different from gross to net. Just don't rev it up over 6,000 RPM in stock form. That's my advice.
View attachment 52438
Thanks for the info. Since I know the carb is too small I will probably start with that and see how it goes before moving on to the timing etc.
I may just drive it the way it is for now as our New England driving season is winding down and work on the carb over the winter.
 

Sparkey

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:thumbsup:Mostly true information there. Still depends on what kind of performance you are looking for. Stop light to stoplight ?
Go with low gears. But if you want to cruise the interstate, keep the gears you have. I agree on the carb. The Edelbrock AVS Thunderer carb will bolt right up to the stock intake manifold and is very easy to tune. You have the factory electronic ignition. It was a very good ignition and could use a few upgrades like a hi energy ignition box and coil. No adjustments are usually necessary unless the distributor is old and the shaft is loose. Complete ignition kits with a new distributor, ignition box and coil can be had for between $150.$300 depending on brand and performance level. Here are the factory tune-up specs on a stock 70-75 Mopars
1970-75 Dodge Tune-up Specifications
Tuning Tips
More great info. Thank you.
 

Sparkey

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Yes and checkout the tune up guide I posted for the rest. Stay with Champion spark plugs. They have always been and still are the factory spark plugs.
Thanks moparleo. I looked at your guide already. Great info. I haven't looked at the plugs the previous owner installed when he rebuilt the engine 500 miles ago but I will remember the Champion plugs when the time comes.
 

IQ52

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That camshaft will want somewhere around 14-16 degrees initial at idle. Then another 16-20 degrees mechanical advance by 3,000 rpm for a total (without vacuum advance) of 32-36 degrees.

Your approximate 1.66 rotations of the driveshaft would indicate about a 3.23:1 rear gear ratio.
 

gzig5

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I would first make sure the cam is degree'd in correctly relative to the crank. You'll need a degree wheel or take to someone familiar with the process. If the cam is off, you aren't going anywhere. Sounds like you have the basis for a good performer and a small carb should only hurt on the top end. When the cam has been verified I'd either go with a FITech or Sniper fuel injection, or a 750 CFM Holley or Quick Fuel carb if you want to stay old school. Thermoquads are suppose to be tricky to tune if you aren't familiar and a lot of the tuning parts are not available any more so you are scrounging from junked carbs. My 340 won't idle for crap with less than 10 degrees advanced and is happier at 15-16.
 

Sparkey

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That camshaft will want somewhere around 14-16 degrees initial at idle. Then another 16-20 degrees mechanical advance by 3,000 rpm for a total (without vacuum advance) of 32-36 degrees.

Your approximate 1.66 rotations of the driveshaft would indicate about a 3.23:1 rear gear ratio.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to recheck the timing when I get a chance.
I thought the internet said to check shaft rotations to 1 tire rotation to get the gear ratio but I knew that a 1.66 ratio was unheard of. The differential is tagged 3.23.
 

Sparkey

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I would first make sure the cam is degree'd in correctly relative to the crank. You'll need a degree wheel or take to someone familiar with the process. If the cam is off, you aren't going anywhere. Sounds like you have the basis for a good performer and a small carb should only hurt on the top end. When the cam has been verified I'd either go with a FITech or Sniper fuel injection, or a 750 CFM Holley or Quick Fuel carb if you want to stay old school. Thermoquads are suppose to be tricky to tune if you aren't familiar and a lot of the tuning parts are not available any more so you are scrounging from junked carbs. My 340 won't idle for crap with less than 10 degrees advanced and is happier at 15-16.

Thanks. The thought of fuel injection had actually crossed my mind just to get away from the carb issues. The guy I bought the car from is a big Mopar guy and he was just finishing up on his 1966 Charger build for the strip complete with parachute when I bought the Challenger. So I assume he built the Challenger engine correctly. I don't know about the degree wheel so I would have to find someone.
I'll be working on the car over the winter & hopefully have to all set for Spring.
 
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