Are E-bodies Muscle? Or Pony?

[Cojohnso]

I believe in the purist sence? E-bodies are Pony cars. Though they are a bit in-between the A-body pony and B-body muscle car platforms.

Let the debate begin?

 

[budascuda]

The engine choice allows them to cover the spectrum.

 

[Cojohnso]

The engine choice allows them to cover the spectrum.

Actually. I believe the Muscle car started with the '64 GTO. "Working man's sports car" it was badged. I understand that performance packages were before '64. Try telling a '63 Savoy owner that his Max Wedge car is really not a Muscle car? It is midsize. With peerformance option. But that is where it differs. The Savoy platform could have had a 6cyl. Or a 4-door model. Not true with GTO. It was Muscle or Bust! Same for Mopar RoadRunner/GTX for example. And only during the years of 64-71. (67-71 in the case of the two mentioned Plymouths.)

Barracuda, Nova, Camaro, Mustang, Firebird, Javelin all are example of pony cars. Which were actually first classified as compacts. But later dumped that classification.

So where does that leave E-bodies? Because there is low performance options? They really don't meet the "Muscle or Bust" criteria. But they are (I believe) classified as a midsize?

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Yes they are .

 

[70chall440]

2 different categories IMO, I see pony cars as a class of cars whereas muscle cars is more of type based on drive train. That said, its just semantics either way and you can call them whatever you like.

 

[Cojohnso]

2 different categories IMO, I see pony cars as a class of cars whereas muscle cars is more of type based on drive train. That said, its just semantics either way and you can call them whatever you like.

The term "Muscle Car" was actually after the fact. Its thrown around loosely today. But I believe the best era in US automotive history. '64-'71. That is VERY argumentative. But just my opinion.

 

[moparleo]

Original GTO was a Le Mans with a 389 snuck out the backdoor by John DeLorean. It was sold as an option package. Not a factory authorized car for 2 more years.
The original "Pony " car was the Mustang, hence the "pony" designation. It outshined the A-body Barracuda which was its contemporary. It became to be defined as any car with a short decklid and long hood.
Chrysler 300 was the original " Muscle Car" 1 hp per C.I. back in the fifties. Muscle usually meant over 300 HP.

 

[413]

Back in the 80’s a muscle car was defined as a mid size car with the large engine from a full size car.

So that take s a Chrysler 300 right out of that scenario.

Now they use a PC description of a muscle car.

 

[rklein71]

There are a million opinions on this topic...

 

[moparleo]

That was an 80''s description of a 50's car. So what is a 2000's description ? What does "muscle" mean today ? In the "old days" it was generally 300 + HP . And 1 hp per c.i. was the gold standard . No electronics, multiport computer controlled F.I.,etc...
History is from where we came from. Research is good for the mind and soul. Easier now to look up things with modern computers than ever before. Just do it for yourself.

 

[70chall440]

I see this as trying to define the undefinable... it is subjective, thus means different things to different people.

 

[RJHJR]

So true!

In the US a lamp sits on a table or, in the case of a floor lamp it sits on the floor.
In other places a lamp in the light bulb in the fixture.
Then there's the dive into its origin.
The deeper you dive the more it seems like a swirly.
what did Edison call a light bulb - Google Search
And before we had oil lamps and candles...

I'm going with the HP position.

I know some guys that used to race 6's.

IMO, if you can generate in excess of 1HP per CI, north or south of 300 you get muscle status.
IMO, if you can get it to lift the front off the ground you get the Bad-Ass prefix.

 

[Daves69]

As far a I recall from back in the '70s, E bodies were considered pony cars. Then too, there is nothing at all wrong with them being a "muscular" pony car! Either way as long as you can call it "yours", that's what really counts.
.........
Pony Up | Mopar Magazine
................
16 Mopar muscle car facts every enthusiast should know | Hagerty Media

 

[Cojohnso]

As far a I recall from back in the '70s, E bodies were considered pony cars. Then too, there is nothing at all wrong with them being a "muscular" pony car! Either way as long as you can call it "yours", that's what really counts.
.........
Pony Up | Mopar Magazine
................
16 Mopar muscle car facts every enthusiast should know | Hagerty Media

They were certainly Muscle era cars. Chrysler was trying of course to cover as much of the performance market as possible with the E-body. (Understandable) From base 6cyl 3 speed. Thru Trans Am road racing small block. To Hemi big block market. All with a single platform. Im not sure the E-body rose to "King of all?" AMC AMX proved a little better in Trans Am. I believe the B-bodies handled the Hemi better? (Certainly in handling) E-bodies were a little tricky on the drag strip? But no argument that the E-body is the most versatile. JMO of someone who has an A,B and E body. (A-bodies are the bottom of the Mopar classic world. But makes for a very decent drag car.)

 

[sir_veza]

My opinion is the E Body was (generally) more a personal luxury car that could be ordered to go fast - at least until 1971. Chrysler was "late for the party" in 1970 when competing with the Mustang, Camaro & Firebird who had three or four good years under their belt at making fast cars...

 

[moparleo]

E-bodies were not as popular when new as people think. Look at the production numbers. Ford sold more Mustangs in 65 almost 700K. Chrysler sold total production Of Challenger and Barracuda for 4 1/2 years. Less than 230K total.
When I test drove them when new They were hard to see out of. Especially if you wanted to back up. The rear sat low and the ride( the bias ply tires didn't help) was fairly hard. They were hard to stop especially with drum brakes. The B-body was much easier to drive and see out of. 1970 B-body production was over 300K alone. But compared to today, cars were pretty scary to drive in the rain. Drum brakes were useless. Either nothing happened or they pulled one way or the other. Some of us remember "the good old days" Not as good as people think today. "Now" will be the "Good old days" to the next generation, if there is one...

 

[Cojohnso]

E-bodies were not as popular when new as people think. Look at the production numbers. Ford sold more Mustangs in 65 almost 700K. Chrysler sold total production Of Challenger and Barracuda for 4 1/2 years. Less than 230K total.
When I test drove them when new They were hard to see out of. Especially if you wanted to back up. The rear sat low and the ride( the bias ply tires didn't help) was fairly hard. They were hard to stop especially with drum brakes. The B-body was much easier to drive and see out of. 1970 B-body production was over 300K alone. But compared to today, cars were pretty scary to drive in the rain. Drum brakes were useless. Either nothing happened or they pulled one way or the other. Some of us remember "the good old days" Not as good as people think today. "Now" will be the "Good old days" to the next generation, if there is one...

Most every road worthy B and E bodies have front disc brakes that I've seen? My 'GTX has the dealer installed front disc brakes. They are not the greatest. Especially by any measure of today's standards. But a VERY big step up in '69.

 

[sir_veza]

E-bodies were not as popular when new as people think. Look at the production numbers. Ford sold more Mustangs in 65 almost 700K. Chrysler sold total production Of Challenger and Barracuda for 4 1/2 years. Less than 230K total.
When I test drove them when new They were hard to see out of. Especially if you wanted to back up. The rear sat low and the ride( the bias ply tires didn't help) was fairly hard. They were hard to stop especially with drum brakes. The B-body was much easier to drive and see out of. 1970 B-body production was over 300K alone. But compared to today, cars were pretty scary to drive in the rain. Drum brakes were useless. Either nothing happened or they pulled one way or the other. Some of us remember "the good old days" Not as good as people think today. "Now" will be the "Good old days" to the next generation, if there is one...

I've never owned one but didn't the 1970 Challenger TA come with font disc brakes and a sway bar as standard?

 

[moparleo]

Guess you guys weren't into cars very much back then. Drum brakes were standard on most cars until 1972. You had to buy a package to get disc before then. Just like electronic ignition was not standard until mid 72. Like I said in an earlier post, it is very easy to find answers today with computers. Or read books like we did for the last 50 years. Motors Manuals, Mitchells, etc..
I have been in the automotive business since the late 60's. Seen a lot happen in that time. Like I said before the good old days weren't as good as people think they were. You had to know how to work on cars back then and not just for fun. They required a lot of maintenance. They all used oil, designed that way. Needed lots of lubrications. Getting an oil change and lube job use to mean something different than todays oil change.
Oils, lubes, fuels, gaskets, seals, etc... were nowhere near as good as todays stuff.
Modern guys are spoiled.

 

[Cojohnso]

Guess you guys weren't into cars very much back then. Drum brakes were standard on most cars until 1972. You had to buy a package to get disc before then. Just like electronic ignition was not standard until mid 72. Like I said in an earlier post, it is very easy to find answers today with computers. Or read books like we did for the last 50 years. Motors Manuals, Mitchells, etc..
I have been in the automotive business since the late 60's. Seen a lot happen in that time. Like I said before the good old days weren't as good as people think they were. You had to know how to work on cars back then and not just for fun. They required a lot of maintenance. They all used oil, designed that way. Needed lots of lubrications. Getting an oil change and lube job use to mean something different than todays oil change.
Oils, lubes, fuels, gaskets, seals, etc... were nowhere near as good as todays stuff.
Modern guys are spoiled.

Yes standard. But many selected the updated front disc break option. With today's power upgrades so wildly available? It would be almost criminal not to upgrade brakes.