Brake Leaks In need of Advice/Suggestions

[BriceRoad]

When I was at Carlisle i saw that In-Line tube was selling reproductions of the original 1970 e body proportioning valve set up. Since i like to my car to look original and those parts were long gone (what was there was not good and I had installed a '72-'74 setup which worked great) I bought the repro parts. I also bought all new brake lines from In-Line tube. When I had my car apart I installed everything. I have replaced brake lines in at about 4 different cars and never had any problems including no leaks. With these parts there seems to be more than one leak around the proportioning valve. I am not exactly sure where the leak is coming from but it is running down the frame rail and finally coming out near where the frame rail ends.

I read on For B boodies only to use this washer:





Do I A) keep what I got and install those washer or B) go back to my original setup but I only saved the one very long front to rear brake line or C) buy new brake lines but this time from SS tubes which used to be Fine Lines and that is where I got all my brake lines in the past. Thanks for your help.

 

[Challenger RTA]

I would contact In-Line tube. And tell them the problem they just might stand behind their product. or have a solution. I know myself from doing brake lines they have to turned in until it stops. Not just tight. Until it stops! My son just replaced brake lines on his car. I had him make his own lines and put them on. They leaked they were tight but they still turned. He got a 1/4 turn on the ones that leaked and it fixed it. He has done it before but I wanted his skills in play. The other thing to do is use a flair wrench if you are having problems.

 

[BriceRoad]

Thanks for the quick response. During an internet search I found I am not the only person with these problems from this company. That is one of the things I am wondering. Are their parts just not made well? I also found some not so pleasant reviews on their customer service but I took your advice and I sent them an email. So I will find out. Part of the problem is it is hard to tell exactly where the leak is coming from and if there is more than one leak. Others have stated that they were told by the company to repeatedly screw the lines in out to get a good seal? I have never heard of this. Anyway, in the image "A" below the white arrows are pointing to ledges that I was constantly finding to be wet with brake fluid. I thought it was coming from the top nut (yellow arrow) but my friend thinks it might be coming from where the two pieces of the valve meet (orange arrow). I tightened the top nut as tight as I could get it. No effect on the problem. Also in image "B" I found it to be very wet where the blue arrow is pointing.

 

[moparleo]

Install a new crush washer there.
Best to use the factory steel lines, SS lines are very hard to get to seal.
Dr. Diff has these parts as well.
Brakes :: Components

 

[Challenger RTA]

This is kind of a must for brake line work. I will get it tight without rounding the nut. It can be done with a standard wrench. I didn't want to post a picture of Craftsman they use to be worth it.

 

[BriceRoad]

I will keep updating this thread just in case it helps someone else down the road. Before I go further I want to back track a little bit to when I installed these brakes lines. As I mentioned I had done this before. In the past I always had to tweak the lines a little bit and most of the lines in this kit were like that. In this kit I had a lot of trouble with the very small line which goes from one valve to the other. You can see it in Image "B". It took me a long time to get that to fit in both places. The other thing was when I installed the one piece front to rear brake line I started at the rear. When I got to the front the line was pointing at the ground (six o'clock) when it should have been pointing at 3 o'clock. This line didn't need just to be tweaked. It was way off. This gave me a bad feeling about these lines and my gut proved to be right. Never in the past had I had a brake line so far off.

Anyway, back to the present. In Line Tube customer support got back to me very quickly. I cannot say a bad word about their CS. The rep pointed me to a video on their website called "How to seat brake lines". First they tell you to inspect the "witness ring". Then they tell you to use a deep socket to make sure the line is straight and to make sure the line doean't move when installed in the valve and you slide the nut away from it. Step #3) is to tighten the nut with your fingers, then using a line wrench tighten the nut snug, then go a 1/2 turn further to seat the flare. Then loosen the nut and repeat this process 3 more times. Then, and I quote, "Each time you tighten with the wrench add a half turn more."

So what I decided to do is to follow the directions given to me by the In Line Tube rep. I only decided this because I already have everything and if by some miracle it stops leaking I can finally drive my car after 4 years of hell with 2 engine failures. This brake problem, and finishing more of the interior are the only things stopping me from finally using the car to attend shows and pleasure driving. So what I did was first I inspected all the witness rings. They all looked good to me. None one of them looked bad like the one in the video. Second I checked the lines that I could with the deep socket and all seemed straight to me but remember that little brake line mentioned above? There is no way to check that one. The deep socket won't fit on it and that is the one that looked like it was bent a little and it is one of the lines that was leaking. It is very difficult to see while on the car if the line moved when you moved the nut away from it like they show in the video. So I moved on to step 3. The first problem I had with Step 3 is that the guy makes it look so easy as he does it on a work bench. It's a lot harder on the car with an engine installed. So I took the proportioning valves out of the car and did what I could on the work bench. I tightened the nuts by hand and then snugged them up with a line wrench just like they say. [Challneger RTA: I do have Craftsman line wrenches which I got 30 years ago from Sears--thanks for your suggestion] Then I tried to go a 1/2 turn further. Most of the time I got close to a 1/2 turn but sometimes I didn't make it that far. The nut was getting really really tight. I did this 4 times and on most of them the nut got even tighter on the 3rd try (IN other words it got really tight well before a 1/2 turn). I hope this means that the flare was getting seated. The other problem I had was there WAS NO WAY I could add a half turn. Most of the time I could barely get the 1/2 turn in after snugging it up. It was getting really really tight and I just wasn't strong enough to go another half turn. I was also getting that feeling that something was going to break if I kept going further. So, bottom line is I tried to follow the manufacturers instructions the best I could. Hopefully someone can help me bleed the brakes today. I will back car the car out of the garage and clean up the mess. I will inspect the garage tomorrow morning to see if it still leaks (I hate to be negative but I fear this will be case). If it doesn't work I will follow MoparLeo's advice and I will immediately order new steel lines from SS Tubes.

 

[Challenger RTA]

It sounds like you are competent in what you are doing. I understand your reference to getting it tight. You know when to stop. I have to say I don't use stainless because it can be problematic in making and connecting lines. I always use the copper nickle. line. I think I have 3-4 rolls now. For family and friends. I might even do an enemies brake lines.
A few cheap tools I have that aid in the job. Keep us updated. I used other In line brake products and their good.

 

[Xcudame]

Stainless lines sound so cool in that they'll last forever, but they are a pain to work with! With flare fittings, don't be afraid of coining them (tightening and loosening them) a dozen times or more! It won't hurt anything going overboard in that regard.
Here's hoping you have zero leaks now!

 

[Cuda_mark]

I had the same problem with the inline tube valves. The first one I tried leaked, I got another and it leaked. Finally, I tracked down an original one and problem was solved.

 

[BriceRoad]

Thank you Challenger RTA and Xcudame for the help and positivity. I looked under the car last night and there was some liquid on the floor but it seemed to be water mixed with brake fluid. I had washed the inner fender after I was done yesterday to try to get any brake fluid off the paint. My theory is the soapy water ran down into the frame and mixed with some residual brake fluid that was in there. I cleaned that up and checked it today and the floor looked damp but there was no fluid on the floor. I am cautiously optimistic!

 

[Challenger RTA]

 

[BriceRoad]

I had the same problem with the inline tube valves. The first one I tried leaked, I got another and it leaked. Finally, I tracked down an original one and problem was solved.

I did think of that but I hope this is not the case with me. I think the 1970 setup for disc brakes is hard to find.

It is really scary to me that in today's world you really have to research parts because many parts are not even close in quality to what the factory used. My car is no show car just driver quality but I have gotten several compliments over the years on how reliable it was. It has made the 160 mile (one way) trip to Carlisle many times and 4 times it made it to the Mopar Nationals in Ohio which is over 1,000 miles (both ways).

 

[1972 AAR Cuda]

I replaced all of my brake lines with stainless and it was a pain getting them to seal - a couple of the joints had to be tightened, then loosened a couple times and then I had to apply more force than I wanted to before they would actually seal.

 

[Challenger RTA]

The manufactures of the products are not at fault. It's just the price you pay for you preference. Not saying any one is finding fault with them.

 

[BriceRoad]

Good news! For 2 days straight no brake fluid on the ground! I had my stepson help me bleed the system and I can finally drive my car without the fear of it not being able to stop. I am very happy. I guess I should not have been so negative. Now I just have to finish a few more things like getting the gauges to work and rebuilding the passenger seat frame before Carlisle. Thank you all very much for your help.

Even though I was able to get the stainless steel lines to seal the next time I will go back to steel. My reason is my car is garage kept and very rarely sees bad weather plus if I flush the brake system every 3 years or so I highly doubt the steel lines will rust in my lifetime. The two steel lines I did not replace over the rear axle still look like new (I installed those about 20 years ago).

Interesting video posted above. The guy says stainless steel lines should only be used with single flare AN style fittings. The lines I have are not single flare AN style fittings. He doesn't explain why he says that. I hope I will be okay with the lines I have. I like Speedway Motors. I bought a tool that cuts the outside of an oil filter off so you can examine the filter inside. The tool worked great.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Thanks for letting us know. Knowledge is power. If one doesn't know ask. I ask a lot of questions before and I still do.

 

[BriceRoad]

Bad news. I looked under my car last night and there is a large puddle of brake fluid on the floor. It is very hard to see where it is coming from because the brake fluid is new so it is very clear. The fittings do not feel wet like last time. They do feel slightly moist but I am wondering if the leak is coming from the valve? What I find strange is for 2 days it didn't leak and then I bled the system and drove the car around the neighborhood and then it leaks. I should have been checking it everyday after driving it but I thought it was good. Is it possible that the pressure when using the brakes causes the leak?

I could try those installing those crush washers or go back to steel lines but if it is the valve itself that won't help. There is a factory valve on eBay for $190. I also noticed there different companies that make the repro 1970 valve. They are different in appearance from the one from In Line Tube but how do I know that valve is good quality? I am not sure what to do.

 

[Challenger RTA]

I understand the way you feel. Just resolved my issue. Read this it might trigger a thought. Brake issues
The one thing I didn't post there, was that I stood on the brake until a line leaked then replaced it. Stood on brake: Meaning pushed with both feet on the pedal and hands pulling on steering wheel with full force. Held there for a bit and did it few time. The brake system is probably about 600 psi. I would try it to see if you can find it. A third eye might help. Set up a few spare cell phones and see what happens. You significant other messing with you putting a little on the floor?

 

[BriceRoad]

Great idea! Thanks a lot! I read the other thread. My first thought was the hammer as a joke but was surprised that actually fixed the problem. One thing I have learned with these cars is there is always something else you can learn.

 

[BriceRoad]

I had my stepson pump the brake pedal and I noticed brake fluid dripping down from the valve. I was on the ground. When I looked from the top the brake fluid appears top be coming out of the valve. Where the orange arrow is. I emailed the company. I will let you guys know what they say. I might be buying that original valve on eBay.