Metal Bonding Questions

[CoronetRTguy]

Hey everyone I have a question on doing metal bonding. I know this stuff has come a long way since my dad and myself used it.

I think we used it about 8-9 years ago on my 70 Torino Cobra SCJ car. We welded one full quarter panel and a rep came in and said to try this stuff on our panels.

These where full panels (not to the sail) and where good size panels. My dad asked me if I wanted to give it a try.

We put this stuff on some metal in the shop and we could not no matter what we did pull it part.

I know you have to do metal prep just as if you where welding and you also still have to do some spot welds to the panels.

Tell me have any of you guys used any of this stuff as of late?

What are the results if you have used it?

I remember the panels looked great as there was no real heat to warp them and the panel looked factory like it had never been off the car and replaced.

I saw this being talked about on Moparts.com and thought I would see if anyone has used the stuff in the last year or so and what you think about it.

Im still going to weld my panels in like the trunk, trunk extensions and wheel housing but I may use this on my quarters.

This will give it a smooth area and no chance of warping.

 

[ramenth]

Hey everyone I have a question on doing metal bonding. I know this stuff has come a long way since my dad and myself used it.

I think we used it about 8-9 years ago on my 70 Torino Cobra SCJ car. We welded one full quarter panel and a rep came in and said to try this stuff on our panels.

These where full panels (not to the sail) and where good size panels. My dad asked me if I wanted to give it a try.

We put this stuff on some metal in the shop and we could not no matter what we did pull it part.

I know you have to do metal prep just as if you where welding and you also still have to do some spot welds to the panels.

Tell me have any of you guys used any of this stuff as of late?

What are the results if you have used it?

I remember the panels looked great as there was no real heat to warp them and the panel looked factory like it had never been off the car and replaced.

I saw this being talked about on Moparts.com and thought I would see if anyone has used the stuff in the last year or so and what you think about it.

Im still going to weld my panels in like the trunk, trunk extensions and wheel housing but I may use this on my quarters.

This will give it a smooth area and no chance of warping.

Don't be afraid to use it on the wheel houses either. I'm still an old fashioned guy who likes to weld on the pans, but I do know I lot of guys now who won't even turn the welder on.

As you know, you need an adhesive with a long work time when it comes to put on panels. Slide them into place once you've got 'em together, don't pull 'em apart to try again.

The best thing is the corrosion resistance between panels. A good weld through primer and a good prepped weld are great things for corrosion resistance, but the corrosion resistance of the urethane adhesive is almost absolute, which is why it's become so wide spread in the collision industry these days.

The heat from the weld on sheetmetal not just warps, but if you don't prep the metal right around the weld will start to corrode, too. Heat a piece of metal with a torch and walk away for a day. Tell me what you see when you come back. The adhesive eliminates this.

And collision testing shows it time and time again. The adhesive is just as strong, if not strong than welding. Many of the cars leaving the factory today are bonded together.

 

[wolfgang]

whats the name of this stuff?

 

[CoronetRTguy]

Thanks ramenth for that info man. I used it once on a Torino Cobra and it held well.

I wasnt sure about using it on wheel housing but I guess if it has to be pluged weld it will work. The trunk pan is not one big weld its a spot weld so I might do it there as well and spot weld to.

I need to read up on it a bit more and find the best one to use. I want it to be slow drying so I have time to work the panels.

Im looking at 3M and SEM and I know LORD makes it as well and I think now is a part of either SEM or 3M.

What is the best one to use?

Oh one more thing when we used it back 8-9 years ago there was no removing that panel and we used it on a few other things that held.

I know someone said on another board it will only last 20 years before you will have to redo it. They said that was a bad thing but what about if you do a stock restoration how long will it last until you have to redo things.

I know metal will rust quicker with welds that are not prepped good and then it will as well.

When a car has had problems and you fix those problems they will come back later maybe not to the point it was in when first started.

I think even shows cars just leight duity has to have work done to them after 20 years.

 

[ramenth]

Twenty years, huh? I hadn't heard that one, and considering the products haven't been on the shelf for 20 years, it's a little unverifiable. Sounds like someone talking out his a** to me. Ma Mopar was one the first manufacturers to use the adhesive bond on the first gen Intrepids and the rest of the LH cars. And the oldest of those is going on 16 years old now. Find one and take a look at the trunk gutters where the quarters roll over. Chances are the rest of the car might be rotted to hell, but that area will be clean as a pin, given that it's a rain gutter and collects a lot of s*** there if the car is constantly parked under a tree. Those quarters were bonded on.
Take a look at the 4th gen Camaros and Firebirds. The doors are bonded together on those. Yes, there was a recall on them, but I guarantee you, that if the recall was done right, those doors are still together for being 20 years old now.

As far as product goes, each one will tell you it's the best, of course. I can't personally vouch for each one. Around here Fusor and Duramix are the two most popular. I've used both with good success. Fusor usually being the better of the two, Duramix usually coming in at a better price.

You're right, though, if it can be welded together, it can be bonded. As far as work time, your best better is to find an auto body supply store near you and start talking to the reps, not just the counter guys, but the reps who go out to the shops and find out which one would be the best of what they carry for your application. You can tell the reps by the names on all the certifications they should have hanging on the walls.

Oh, I forgot to ad: Fusor does make an adhesive which can welded, also, since you brought that up about the trunk floor. It's burn resistant so you can heat it.

 

[CoronetRTguy]

Twenty years, huh? I hadn't heard that one, and considering the products haven't been on the shelf for 20 years, it's a little unverifiable. Sounds like someone talking out his a** to me. Ma Mopar was one the first manufacturers to use the adhesive bond on the first gen Intrepids and the rest of the LH cars. And the oldest of those is going on 16 years old now. Find one and take a look at the trunk gutters where the quarters roll over. Chances are the rest of the car might be rotted to hell, but that area will be clean as a pin, given that it's a rain gutter and collects a lot of s*** there if the car is constantly parked under a tree. Those quarters were bonded on.
Take a look at the 4th gen Camaros and Firebirds. The doors are bonded together on those. Yes, there was a recall on them, but I guarantee you, that if the recall was done right, those doors are still together for being 20 years old now.

As far as product goes, each one will tell you it's the best, of course. I can't personally vouch for each one. Around here Fusor and Duramix are the two most popular. I've used both with good success. Fusor usually being the better of the two, Duramix usually coming in at a better price.

You're right, though, if it can be welded together, it can be bonded. As far as work time, your best better is to find an auto body supply store near you and start talking to the reps, not just the counter guys, but the reps who go out to the shops and find out which one would be the best of what they carry for your application. You can tell the reps by the names on all the certifications they should have hanging on the walls.

Oh, I forgot to ad: Fusor does make an adhesive which can welded, also, since you brought that up about the trunk floor. It's burn resistant so you can heat it.

Thanks Ramenth for the info and I think I will be using this stuff. My dad is friends with a lot of the paint and body shop supply places here and can get the low down on one over the other.

I think the one we used was called Liquid Weld or something like that. I can remember the smell, it smelled like you where running a welder.

We used it on some plastic pieces as well and it held up really good on that.

I think I will find what has the best drying time (Slow drying) and ask questions from the reps. I will line the panels up, take them back off clean them and realign them again and screw them down.

I think will get the trunk pan in first and do it all over again until I have it all done.

I think the other board and the guy was talking way out in left field on restoring a car. I have seen cars done right and maybe ten years later the work will start to show up and need re-done again.

I think once you restore a car it will always be needing something and if you drive it well thats just more to it needing work again later on down the road.

I have to clean out the sail panels and that part will be welded back. I hear not to use the bonding agents there and I guess I will just get that fixed. There is not rust out just needs cleaning.

 

[ramenth]

I think the other board and the guy was talking way out in left field on restoring a car. I have seen cars done right and maybe ten years later the work will start to show up and need re-done again.

I think once you restore a car it will always be needing something and if you drive it well thats just more to it needing work again later on down the road.

I have to clean out the sail panels and that part will be welded back. I hear not to use the bonding agents there and I guess I will just get that fixed. There is not rust out just needs cleaning.

I saw the item about the sailplane popping. I didn't chime in on it because, well, some guys say they have an experience and some of us can go the other way. Depending on the personality sitting on the other computer screen it can lead to a virtual shouting match. I've seen welds pop in the same area. Usually when done with a butt weld, with no overlap for strength. Maybe he should asking his rep why instead of just speculating that's the expansion of the joint. There are more joints than that. Are they doing the same? Or is panel prep?

You're right on the driving it. Gonna get stone chips, scratches etc. The body will take a beating, just as the rest of the car will. Most guys seem to forget that a unibody car is designed to flex in specific areas, especially our older cars with live axles and leaf springs. The suspension shocks take the jolt out of the ride, but on crazy bumps or under hard acceleration, the body is one giant shock, too. Or is this the reason for the above's sailplane area malfunction? Too much horsepower and too much flex? Problem solving is also the function of a good technician.

The old saw that a good painter has to make every mistake in the book before he can be a good painter holds true in a lot of body work, too. Screw up this one time, figure out what happened and don't let it happen again.

Routine maintainence is just as important on the body as it is the suspension. I have one guy here I did his F150 4x4 about six years ago. The truck is junk. Rotted out, falling apart. He claims it's my fault. But since day one he's never washed it, never waxed it, drives it all winter, mudslings with it. He's bounced engine blocks off the bed sides, scratched the hell out of it with his cap. Sorry, chief, I don't own the truck, the owner has to take responsibility once the keys have been turned over. On the flip side of that I have a Lincoln Mark IV that Pop and I did ten years ago for a customer who uses it as a daily driver all year 'round that looks as good as it did the day it rolled out of the booth. The owner keeps it washed, keeps it waxed. Upkeep is important.

 

[CoronetRTguy]

Hey ramenth that is true on everything you said. I dont think alot of people grasp once a car needs work and has had it done it will always need it down the road.

The panels I think no matter what you do they will need some repair later on.

I have seen cars done by big name shops to later on needing panels worked on again.

I think metal bonding will help in slowing down some of that process as it seels it off better then what a weld would do.

The prep before and after are the key points in any of this weather its weleded or metal bonded.

Im going to check into this a lot more and talk to some reps to see what the shops in town are using the most and why.

I think if I go with the bonding I will do it as it says on the directions and weld where I need to.

This should be a big big thing in restoring out Mopar and classic cars. I think this is the future and a way to cut down on problems later on. This might fight rust (if nipped from the start) and allow a smoother finish.

Keep the info coming and thanks ramenth.

 

[ramenth]

Hey ramenth that is true on everything you said. I dont think alot of people grasp once a car needs work and has had it done it will always need it down the road.

The panels I think no matter what you do they will need some repair later on.

I have seen cars done by big name shops to later on needing panels worked on again.

I think metal bonding will help in slowing down some of that process as it seels it off better then what a weld would do.

The prep before and after are the key points in any of this weather its weleded or metal bonded.

Im going to check into this a lot more and talk to some reps to see what the shops in town are using the most and why.

I think if I go with the bonding I will do it as it says on the directions and weld where I need to.

This should be a big big thing in restoring out Mopar and classic cars. I think this is the future and a way to cut down on problems later on. This might fight rust (if nipped from the start) and allow a smoother finish.

Keep the info coming and thanks ramenth.

It's definately the wave of the future. What I like the most about it is the corrosion resistance between panels. I mean stop and think about. The areas which will take the most beating are the areas right around the tires, as the tires will pick up and kick anything on the road, be it left over salt if you're a little anxious in the spring, to the road film coming up after a rain, to rocks and pebbles. And the area which holds most of this s*** is the quarter to wheelhouse lips. Run can run a hose in there and get it washed off with some good soap and water, but what about the residue which has already worked its way in between to unsealed panels? Weld through primer helps the creep and if you have a rotisserie, working some paint in there will help, but if it's not prepped right, the paint will chip and fall off. This way there's a layer of urethane material between the two panels keeping the stuff out to start with.

There's a place for welding, still. Personally, I'd probably still weld the pans and the rails, just because the welding is faster and it gets the structural ridigity of the car back together in a hurry. Or if you're working under a tight deadline, you don't have to wait for the weld to set before you move on to the next step.

 

[CoronetRTguy]

It's definately the wave of the future. What I like the most about it is the corrosion resistance between panels. I mean stop and think about. The areas which will take the most beating are the areas right around the tires, as the tires will pick up and kick anything on the road, be it left over salt if you're a little anxious in the spring, to the road film coming up after a rain, to rocks and pebbles. And the area which holds most of this s*** is the quarter to wheelhouse lips. Run can run a hose in there and get it washed off with some good soap and water, but what about the residue which has already worked its way in between to unsealed panels? Weld through primer helps the creep and if you have a rotisserie, working some paint in there will help, but if it's not prepped right, the paint will chip and fall off. This way there's a layer of urethane material between the two panels keeping the stuff out to start with.

There's a place for welding, still. Personally, I'd probably still weld the pans and the rails, just because the welding is faster and it gets the structural ridigity of the car back together in a hurry. Or if you're working under a tight deadline, you don't have to wait for the weld to set before you move on to the next step.

I think your right on this is the wave of the future in not only new car repair or new car building but for restoration.

I dont know if we will ever be able to get away from welding and I dont think we should. I hope it never becomes a lost art form. My dad was artist when it came to doing body work.

I also like that it is a good way of protecting new quarters or panels that are put in.

Im not on any deadline so I have time to put the panel on let it cure and then go back and weld in the places that will need to be done.

This is my own personal car and this is a process I think that will look smooth and have a good out come.

Im not sure what one I will use yet weather it be 3M or LORD FUSOR.

What is the one you like the best and why?

The prices are about 15 bucks in differnce so thats not a problem here. I will be doing the work in my home garage come spring to early summer.

I will wait for a warm day and night and try not to have a lot of moisture in the air.

Keep the info coming as this is a good thought process and one I think we all should look at to use.

I dont think the old way is old and only way and I also at the same time dont think new is better but could be.

This is going to be a car that will be restored from top to bottom and it will be one I drive and I know in doing that I will always being doing something to it.

I also think to redo a car and only show it and not drive you will still have to do something to it later on.

 

[chasduster]

This is some good info guys Thanks , coming from a mechanic background...I don't see allot of this stuff..or in any case get to use it...I have heard of it and have heard all good things...the stories about bonding two pieces of steel/metal 2 gether rigging up a chain of somsort and pulling them apart and the steel ripped...the bond held..That is pretty awesome stuff right there..Like ramenth said it is all in the prep work...good thread

 

[ramenth]

This is some good info guys Thanks , coming from a mechanic background...I don't see allot of this stuff..or in any case get to use it...I have heard of it and have heard all good things...the stories about bonding two pieces of steel/metal 2 gether rigging up a chain of somsort and pulling them apart and the steel ripped...the bond held..That is pretty awesome stuff right there..Like ramenth said it is all in the prep work...good thread

I just tried a youtube search for some of the early collision videos on this stuff from Fusor, Duramix, and the like. I couldn't find 'em, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

I've seen some wrecks which were smacked hard enough to pop spot welds (scary) and compared to the vids for this stuff, the sheetmetal got wadded, but nothing came loose from each other.

On a not of the vids, though, run a youtube search for "Fusor" and you'll see some great tutorials on what's available and how to use it. It's product specific, but all the major brands have something similiar. I especially like the "flow out" seam sealer available to lay in factory style seam sealer on drip rails and around door skins. Used to be you could tell when work was done there, just by the way the seam sealer looked. Not anymore.

 

[CoronetRTguy]

I just tried a youtube search for some of the early collision videos on this stuff from Fusor, Duramix, and the like. I couldn't find 'em, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

I've seen some wrecks which were smacked hard enough to pop spot welds (scary) and compared to the vids for this stuff, the sheetmetal got wadded, but nothing came loose from each other.

On a not of the vids, though, run a youtube search for "Fusor" and you'll see some great tutorials on what's available and how to use it. It's product specific, but all the major brands have something similiar. I especially like the "flow out" seam sealer available to lay in factory style seam sealer on drip rails and around door skins. Used to be you could tell when work was done there, just by the way the seam sealer looked. Not anymore.

With the metal bonding do I need to use a seam sealer?

I am going to be using this stuff along with some welding as it is directed. Im just not sure what brand I will be using yet. I think its only like 10-15 bucks differnce in price in my area from 3M and LORD FUSOR.

I want the one with the longest set up time thats for sure.

Ramenth you have been a wealth of knowledge on this and I thank you man for all the info and keep it coming.

This is a big step for us do it yourself home guys. Im a little more lucky in the fact my dad used to be a body man and used it some before retiring.

I may do a video of this when I start on the panels as I have been thinking of doing a video and picture book of doing the car.

 

[chasduster]

ramenth I will ask my bodyshop teacher at my boces center that I work at to see if he has that Video...and see if I can get a copy of it...

 

[ramenth]

With the metal bonding do I need to use a seam sealer?

I am going to be using this stuff along with some welding as it is directed. Im just not sure what brand I will be using yet. I think its only like 10-15 bucks differnce in price in my area from 3M and LORD FUSOR.

I want the one with the longest set up time thats for sure.

Ramenth you have been a wealth of knowledge on this and I thank you man for all the info and keep it coming.

This is a big step for us do it yourself home guys. Im a little more lucky in the fact my dad used to be a body man and used it some before retiring.

I may do a video of this when I start on the panels as I have been thinking of doing a video and picture book of doing the car.

I would recommend the seam sealer at the door skins. Remember you'll be bonding the shell to the skin, but you'll still need to roll the skin edge over where there will be no bond. It'll also help with a factory appearance. And that's the idea with a restoration, right? Factory appearance?

 

[ramenth]

ramenth I will ask my bodyshop teacher at my boces center that I work at to see if he has that Video...and see if I can get a copy of it...

Now that would be cool.

 

[chasduster]

I asked him sorry no Video.he thought it was 20 or 22 gage steel ... this is his quote " I don’t think I ever had a video. A 3M rep did it at an auto body show so we tried it back at school on the frame machine and it ripped the panel before the bond. So it’s only in my head, not on video "...

 

[chasduster]

...Just called my supplier,,,Parts plus....3M part # 08115 , $51.79 for the bonding stuff.....the special gun is $389.00 Part # 08117....ouchy....these are all walk in prices....if you are a dealer obviously you can get a better deal...anybody have a gun........

 

[CoronetRTguy]

...Just called my supplier,,,Parts plus....3M part # 08115 , $51.79 for the bonding stuff.....the special gun is $389.00 Part # 08117....ouchy....these are all walk in prices....if you are a dealer obviously you can get a better deal...anybody have a gun........

That is high for the gun WOW . Im not sure if the parts place that qwoted me the price on the 3M stuff said the gun wasnt that high.

Im not sure if the LORD FUSOR comes with the gun or not as the other parts place said nothing about the gun other then you put it in the gun.

Hmmmm I need to ask more questions from the parts supply places. My dad had his own shop and dealt with these places all the time so Im not sure if they would cut him a deal on it or not but they may.

 

[ramenth]

When I bought into the Duramix system I got six tubes of my choice, a rack to hold them with, a gun, several tips, a video (useful, very useful) and a pamphlet with all the product available and it was a helluva lot cheaper than was just quoted on 3M. Less than half, if I remember rightly.