SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!

[ECS]

I wanted to cover specific data regarding "Survivor" versus a "Ground Up" Restorations. This information originated in another Forum but I wanted to convey the steps & processes here. I'll ramp things up quickly by posting the pictures here on a daily basis. Let me start by saying that the two areas are completely different than one would imagine. With a survivor, many assume that it should be much easier of a project than starting with a worn out, extensively used vehicle. This could not be farther from the truth!!! It wasn't until restoring the Valiant that our team understood the true meaning of the word RESTORE! As this thread progresses, I will post the procedural variations that contrast the two processes.


Most Basket Case or Ground Up projects can be compared to a General Contractor in the Construction Industry. You out source many components, let the Specialists work their magic and re-assemble the parts when they are returned. For example, enthusiasts can rely on Companies such as Lengendary Interiors to locate NOS materials, stitch together the correct patterns and presto......you have a "new Factory" interior! With relatively minimal involvement you are ready to bolt in a major part of the project! With a "Survivor" the original interior exhibits 40+ years of wear, tear and dirt. No longer does one have the leisure of subcontracting the work to make things look new again. You literally have to restore every component that originally came on the vehicle from the Factory.

How many restorers have attempted to make 40+ year old rust stained carpet look and smell new again? What about removing 40 years of grime and dirt from the mesh material of seat inserts? Or replicating every detail from an old weathered K Frame assembly? (See Pic Below) Keep in mind that there can be no evidence of tampering with these original materials or parts when completed! The "Ground Up" Restoration for the Cuda and Challenger was a necessary preparation towards the extreme difficulties that faced us during the Valiant Project. Having been involved with both types of restorations, we will share our experiences from each vantage point. Please feel free to post your own restoration stories, questions or observations. Let's get started!

Before

After

 

[ECS]

As most Enthusiasts already know, one of the most important things to do in doing an OE Restoration is documenting the characteristics that the vehicle originally possessed. Having the skills to replicate the Factory details are also a necessary factor in the equation but understanding how things were done on the Assembly Line is the first step towards obtaining a correct job. Here are a few "Before & After" pictures of some original features that were refurbished during an OE style "Survivor" Restoration.

Before

After

Before

After

Before

After

Before

After.

 

[moparleo]

Here is a little reference material to help you decide what the definition of restored vs. survivor.: The term "survivor" is trade marked.

http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/?link=4areas

 

[ECS]

Here is a little reference material to help you decide what the definition of restored vs. survivor.: The term "survivor" is trade marked.http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/?link=4areas

Thanks for the information. We certainly know the qualifications that classify a vehicle as being a "Survivor". This thread is to compare and contrast the considerations a Restorer must make when restoring a vehicle that is "trashed" versus one that still maintains its original build status. The 1970 Challenger we Restored was considered a 26,000 original mile Basket-case and the 1970 Valiant was a 10,000 mile Survivor. Some incorrectly assume that a "Survivor" is an easier vehicle to restore but it actually takes twice the amount of effort to do a correct Assembly Line job. Unlike a basket-case that allows the Restorer some freedom in the process, a Survivor leaves no room for interpretation. ALL the original build characteristics are there for documentation and replacing every detail EXACTLY the way it was built is extremely difficult. You have to match every paint drip, inspection mark, bolt configuration, build technique, etc........ that was on the vehicle when it was new.

We took over 10,000 pictures to document each aspect of the Valiant and then put every piece & part back exactly like we documented it. Consider the fastening hardware for example. Each and every fastener/bolt/screw was photographed from numerous angles and then put back into their original holes. After they were re-installed, we clocked the heads to the same rotation position in which they were documented. That alone added approximately 400 hours to the project. Matching the inspection marks was also a tremendous and tedious undertaking.

BEFORE

AFTER

BEFORE

AFTER

BEFORE

AFTER

BEFORE

AFTER

BEFORE

AFTER

 

[moparleo]

Looks like an excellent job of detailing, I thought something can be original only once. What do you call a highly detailed part that has been refinished? A survivor if all the paint marks match the part in its original condition ? I thought that survivors were " original" not detailed to look like the part was when new. Any part can be repainted but can only have its original paint once. JMO
Very confusing. More links :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_restoration

 

[ECS]

Looks like an excellent job of detailing, I thought something can be original only once. What do you call a highly detailed part that has been refinished? A survivor if all the paint marks match the part in its original condition ? I thought that survivors were " original" not detailed to look like the part was when new. Any part can be repainted but can only have its original paint once. JMO
Very confusing. More links :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_restoration

In no way is this thread to convey that a restored "Survivor" is still considered a Survivor. The premise is to differentiate the process and work that it takes to restore a vehicle that still possesses its original characteristics and a vehicle that no longer is original. Both scenarios have their challenges but the approach one takes to make these vehicles look Assembly Line "NEW" will differ. A Survivor is simply an Automobile that has never been altered or manipulated since the day it was built. This doesn't mean that it represents a "NEW" looking vehicle.

Many Survivors show their old age and no longer exhibit their Showroom appearance. The 1957 Belvedere that was buried in Tulsa, OK is a prime example. It was an unmolested "Survivor" when it was unearthed but its condition was far from being Assembly Line "NEW". Again, the purpose of this thread is not trying to express that Restoring a Survivor allows a vehicle to maintain its Survivor status. It is simply to contrast the paths that a person takes when restoring the two different types of vehicles.

 

[ECS]

Looks like an excellent job of detailing.........

"Detailing" is what is done to a vehicle that has already been finished. Restoring this Survivor required twice the effort and skill that most typical restorations encompass. The vehicle was completely diss-assembled, every component was removed and Restored to look new again. If you are paying attention to the Before & After photos you will see that no amount of "detailing" could have made this rusted vehicle look new again.

Unlike automobiles that undergo typical restorations, this Survivor vehicle left no compromise regarding how the components should look when they were refurbished. Since we were able to document the original status of the vehicle, putting it back to its EXACT Assembly Line condition was the mission statement. Here are a few additional pictures showing the how "bad" the vehicle/components looked prior to being completely restored.

Before - Axle Code Stamping

After - Restored Axle Code Stamping

Before - Passenger Side

Before - Driver Side

After - Both Sides; Lower Control Arms

Before - Torsion Bar Inspection Marks

After - Torsion Bar Inspection Marks

Driver Side - Before

Driver Side - After

Passenger Side - Before

Passenger Side - After

Before - Engine Compartment

After - Engine Compartment

Before - Core Support - Frame Rail - Over-spray

After - Core Support - Frame Rail - Over-spray

 

[moparleo]

Well, I have never seen anything like what you have in the survivor tent of any show I have been. Been to a few. Have seen a lot of "correct restorations with all chalk and paint markings" that looked real similar to your pictures.

 

[ECS]

Well, I have never seen anything like what you have in the survivor tent of any show I have been. Been to a few. Have seen a lot of "correct restorations with all chalk and paint markings" that looked real similar to your pictures.

You are correct! You will never see these restorations in a Survivor tent because they are not Survivors. They are however the highest scoring vehicles in the History of the OE Mopar Nationals. The Valiant is regarded as the most authentic Assembly Line Chrysler Restoration in existence. It appears you like to post links about various subjects so below are a couple that cover some of the Restoration data I have referenced in this thread. Thanks for your input!

http://www.moparaction.com/Article/PoP/PoP.html

http://www.moparaction.com/Article/NEW_GOLD/NEW_GOLD.html

 

[resq302]

Dave,

Fantastic work as usual by you and your team! I can only hope that our 69 GTX convertible will turn out as nice as your projects have when we are done.

 

[resq302]

here are some pics of my moms 70 challenger vert also in white like you chally but hers has a factory red interior.

 

[ECS]

here are some pics of my moms 70 challenger vert also in white like you chally but hers has a factory red interior.

Absolutely Gorgeous! I hope that others will share their projects in this thread. Thanks for posting.

 

[resq302]

We still have some small things to do to the challenger such as install an EXACT factory OE styled exhaust system. I gotta say that the OE system we got from your company is dead on to the factory installed parts.

 

[moparleo]

OK So you define a "survivor" as the ultimate form of a fully documented restoration using either the original part or N.O.S. or "lunch box" parts. Kinda like Juliano does when he has his cars " restored" . You probably don't collect "original " coins, because they cannot be made to appear " like new" without altering the actual appearance and still grade the same as a MS-60 or higher. A cleaned coin is just that, cleaned coin no matter how you do it or how many pictures you take. If the after picture looks better than the before picture, than you have done more than just document the parts original condition, you have changed its condition to emulate the originals.

potato, potatoe

 

[resq302]

some more pics of the chally.

 

[resq302]

OK So you define a "survivor" as the ultimate form of a fully documented restoration using either the original part or N.O.S. or "lunch box" parts. Kinda like Juliano does when he has his cars " restored" . You probably don't collect "original " coins, because they cannot be made to appear " like new" without altering the actual appearance and still grade the same as a MS-60 or higher. A cleaned coin is just that, cleaned coin no matter how you do it or how many pictures you take. If the after picture looks better than the before picture, than you have done more than just document the parts original condition, you have changed its condition to emulate the originals.

potato, potatoe

Actually, I think there is a huge difference with what you just said. A coin can be cleaned / polished up just like chrome can be polished or paint be washed and polished. However, when it comes to repainting parts, that is where it would be considered restored as to make like new again.

 

[ECS]

OK So you define a "survivor" as the ultimate form of a fully documented restoration using either the original part or N.O.S. or "lunch box" parts.

To the contrary. A "Survivor" is nothing more than an old UNTOUCHED/UNMOLESTED Factory original vehicle. The condition is totally irrelevant to its Survivor status. It could be a pristine Survivor or one that shows its old age. The Valiant WAS a "Survivor" before we restored it. After it was restored, it was considered a Restored vehicle and no longer a "Survivor". The Challenger was a Basket Case that was missing many of its original parts. Both cars required a complete Restoration to look Assembly Line new. The "Survivor" Valiant was twice as difficult to restore because every piece had to be worked on where the Challenger used NOS parts that were "detailed" and bolted into place. I'm surprised this is so difficult to understand!

Here is what they looked like prior to their respective Restorations. Do you see the difference?

Challenger - Starting Point of Restoration

Valiant - Starting Point of Restoration

 

[moparleo]

WAIT A MINUTE ERROR,ERROR,ERROR you mislabeled the last photo!!! It should read " Valiant -starting point of transformation to a Survivor." One needs to be restored and the other one just got restored. Its just all about degrees as to what makes one thing restored and the other thing "an original survivor "other than documentation and pictures. I guess you really don't collect coins if you think polishing a coin is the same as polishing chrome. Very nice pictures by the way. Keep them coming.

 

[moparleo]

Wait a minute. I have an apology to make. I didn't pay attention to the fact that 2 different people are posting photos and narration. My mistake was reading what the first poster said about a Survivor is and what restored is. The survivor was the status before you restored it. That's fine. And I understand that it is a lot of work to photograph and document its before condition. You just finished a very time consuming, correct, OE standard restoration on the Valiant. Just that most of the top, Mopar restoration shops do the same thing. One of the reasons that most people can not afford to have them restore their cars. Just like some people like to drive their cars and some just like to look at them. The main thing that drove the reality price of Mopars a few years back into the stratosphere. Fortunately most of those guys have sold their cars at auction and are now buying gold or something similar with their money.

 

[resq302]

WAIT A MINUTE ERROR,ERROR,ERROR you mislabeled the last photo!!! It should read " Valiant -starting point of transformation to a Survivor." One needs to be restored and the other one just got restored. Its just all about degrees as to what makes one thing restored and the other thing "an original survivor "other than documentation and pictures. I guess you really don't collect coins if you think polishing a coin is the same as polishing chrome. Very nice pictures by the way. Keep them coming.

You are correct that I do not collect coins. However, with Dave and is Valiant, he took a Survivor and then restored it to factory fresh conditions keeping all of the original parts but just cleaned them up or rebuilt them to factory fresh standards using the same process that the factory did to install it during assembly. What we do with our cars is to try to restore them to factory fresh conditions yet drive them and try to keep them as nice as we can yet also being able to drive them. Yet, we know that at some point, we will eventually have to refinish some components due to aging, wear, chips, etc. but then again, half the fun of owning them is driving them.