340 windage try installation question

[70Hardtop]

Hi, I have searched through many of the windage tray posts but can't see this info... I'm buttoning up the bottom end of my 340. Using stock pan and pickup and stock windage tray. However I have used Miloden main studs and their windage tray installation kit. But I can't remember if the tray is supposed to sit up tight against the block (the oilpan to block surface) or is there supposed to be a gap there, so it sits 'up in the air' a little? Or maybe it doesn't matter one little bit? Or should there be a certain distance between the tray and the crank throws?

With the Miloden installation kit, even with spacer washers, the tray wants to bottom out onto the block surface.

Thanks

 

[AUSTA]

Mine always bolt with a bit of pressure onto the block would help stop vibration they have a habit of cracking around the bolts rewelded never had a problem
You would think closer to the crank without touching the better to scrape off excess oil

 

[70Hardtop]

Thanks for reply Austa, yeah that's what I was also thinking, about the vibration, that is. But if it was touching was also worried about rattling around inside against the surface, as that tray is only tin and only held by the four bolts at those points, the rest is free to flex around. I also posted on another forum and the replies are mixed, doesn't seem to be a set way of thinking, people seem to have their own ideas or experiences. I also read that if it is too close to the crank, oil can get trapped/squashed between , in the space, creating drag. After all, it is designed to keep oil away from the crank at higher rpm, not as a scraper really.

 

[Steve340]

I have used windage trays in many engines of different types. Never had a problem with them cracking.
However I do check them over to ensure the welds are made correctly and remove ant sharp edges
Position the tray so it clears the rods and counterweights as they swing by about 80 thou or 2 mm.
I space them up and down with automotive hardened washers to achieve this. Do not attach the tray under the fasteners that hold the main cap to the block.
My personal opinion is avoid having it touch any other part of the engine. It will grow and flex as the engine runs up and down the rev range. If it cannot flex it will crack eventually.

 

[70Hardtop]

thanks 340Steve, that's good advice. Although being once in military jet maintenance, I would say that metal parts that are allowed to vibrate of their own, will fatigue quicker, leading to more chance of cracking. I feel there is just as much chance of that if it is also allowed to touch another part unsupported. It's only when it is supported in all critical areas, that metal fatigue is reduced to a minimum. I was more concerned about the rattle or knocking if it was allowed to touch another surface. I think I will keep it away from the pan skirt surface and let it vibrate in the air. If it wants to crack I think it would take a decade. I also had a look along the crank, under the tray, and the height of the main cap nuts (on the tray mounting studs) determines the height from the crank. Which in my case is at least about 1/3 inch. Quite a lot. There is no way to bring it closer to the crank, unless thinner nuts were used ! And if I want to keep it away from the pan rail, it will be even further from the crank.

 

[Steve340]

Hi generally the closest point is a connecting rod bolt or nut as they swing around.
To big a gap is better than too little. If the rod bolt or anything clips the tray you will definitely find out in a hurry.
And you are right if it does crack it will be a long time.
Best of luck with the rebuild.

 

[70Hardtop]

thanks Steve for your advice & wishes

 

[moper]

Because this is a windage tray, not a scraper there should be some space and on a stock 340, there's a bit of room there. If you used the Milodon studs, there should have been self-locking nuts in the kit. They go on the four studs that supprt the tray. Drill the factory tray holes to clear the studs with a little wiggle room. Set four of the nuts "upside down" on the studs - so the locking flange of the nut is the surface the tray will contact. Then put on the tray. Then the other four nuts. You jamb the nuts together with the tray sandwiched between and you can set the distance where ever you need to.

Edit - pic is the studs in place on an LA 422".

 

[70Hardtop]

thanks for post Moper. Yes I remember drilling the tray holes out a little when I fitted it. When you say "self locking nuts", are you referring to Nyloc nuts (which are a true self lock nut), or just nuts with a skirt , ie, a captive washer, ie a larger base? I don't think I got 8 of them, think there was only 4 nuts in the kit, I had to use stray nuts to get the height. Nice photo of a nice engine you have there. Looks like aluminium main caps. And looks like 12 point nuts on the rear main cap and standard nuts on the others. Can't see for sure what the grey /silver is above all the nuts, maybe it is special lube loaded into all the threads.

 

[moper]

The nuts are flange-type nuts with cutting teeth on the bottom surface. They sandwich the tray and lock together... Not like Nylocs or the swedged pinch bolts. I'm sure there's a realterm for them...lol. I don't know it. I don't have any laying around to photograph.
Thanks for the comments. You're sort of close. That is a 422" built some years ago. Now has 20K on it making 470hp on pump gas, ported factory iron heads, and a small hydraulic flat tappet cam. The caps are stock iron - the visual diference is the block was airless shotted, the caps were bead blasted prior to fitting the studs and align honing. The nuts on the #5 cap are 12 point because they are smaller, and with the stud is trimmed the oil pump sits flush as it's supposed to. I don't like using one stock bolt when the mains were honed with all studs...
The grey color is the moly lube that you have to use with ARP fasteners to make their torque values accurate. It dissolves in oil.
Thanks and Merry Christmas!

 

[70Hardtop]

Thanks for the info Moper. Great build you did on that. I know what nuts you are talking about now, I can't remember if I got 4 or 8 of them in the kit, most likely 8 but can't find them now, it had been lying around for a while before fitting. It's not critical anyway. That's good HP out of 422 cubes, I'm impressed... espec with a small hyd cam and iron heads. It is a huge increase in capacity when a stroker crank is used, And shows how strong the Chrysler standard two bolt main caps are if they can handle all that extra capacity and torque !!

One question, may I ask what rear main seal you used? I'm sure there is reams of info here on the forum about what people like to use but did you use a rope seal or the newer press in synthetic type? People I talk to, (including a retired USA Chrysler engineer from the 70s) are telling me to use a rope seal as they are more reliable, ie oil leaks. Thanks

 

[moper]

I build mostly street engines for street cars that might go down the track "sometime". Only a couple customers are racers predominantly. So unless the engines is for drag racing (meaning max power effort - not a street car) I use rope seals. That 422 has rope in it. The 383 I'm doing now got rope too. Rope won't leak or seap even after thousands of hard miles if it's done right - and I hate leaks. Lip seals are easier and don't add as much frictional loss, but with a crank that has the knurling like almost all Mopar cranks (including aftermarket), lip seals will seap or leak. And fairly quickly in some cases. I have not yet tried the newest cut-to-install 360° lip seal. Probably won't as I don't have issues with the system I use now & rope seals are $7 each.

 

[moparlee]

moper.......What brand rope seal are you using and what is your installation procedure? Thanks.

 

[70Hardtop]

I build mostly street engines for street cars that might go down the track "sometime".....& rope seals are $7 each.

That's good advice, esp about the knurling on the crank. I will definitely get a rope seal but not easy to find in Aust, I will just buy some from Rock Auto or Eagle. I don't think Summit have them, but their shipping prices have increased a lot now

 

[moper]

The big block I just did is a combination of Felpro BS130442 to get the rope pieces, and the Felpro side seals for the rear main retainer out of the full gasket set. Silicone could be used instead of the side seals, but I've always used them so I do...lol. According to Summit the application is most Buick V8s and some V6s. I just found the cheapest set of rope I could find...lol.
You have to trim the lengths down. I use a pair of side cutters as even a razor blade has difficulty cutting it cleanly without fraying the ends. Trim down in order to leave about 1/16 or so on each end when it's installed in the top (block-side) groove. Use your fingers to press it into place but don't flatten it entirely. I coat the top surface that the crank rides on with a light layer of chassis grease. Lay the crank in, install the bottom half in the retainer and like the top section, trimmed to leave 1/16" out each end and with a light coat of grease on the surface the crank touches. Install the retainer with either the side seals, silicone, or both, and snug the retainer down evenly making sure the end seals stay in place, all the way down in the grooves.
On a small block, same basic idea (trimming, grease, pressing into place, using the rubber cap-to-block seals from the full set) but I use a little silicone in the grooves in the cap, being careful not to use so much it gets all squished into the cap mating surfaces. There's not a lot of free space when its all together, but there is some and the silicone stops those little seaps over time.

 

[70Hardtop]

The big block I just did is a combination of Felpro BS130442 to get the rope pieces, and the Felpro side seals....those little seeps over time.

Thanks for the instructions Moper. Came at a good time as I am right now, looking for the rope seal ! But I am glad you gave the Felpro Part #. They are not easy to find here (a Mopar parts and restorations place here wants $44 !!!!!!.) That's Aust $ but still way too much for my liking. So you say that the Buick one is the same size? Because I see that Summit has the Buick ones. I am making an order at Rock Auto and I would prefer to get the rope seal from them so I can get everything in one order. Shipping prices have gone up lately from the US. They listed the Chrysler rope seal a few weeks ago but now it seems to have disappeared from the site. But if the Buick one is the same, I can order that from Rock Auto. Also I am not sure about these side seals you are talking about - I see the B /RB engines have them but does the LA engine have these also? Is it possible to post a picture of the rubber seals that are needed? I have some crank seals from a main gasket set but they look like the modern ones used in place of the older rope seals. So I am not sure which ones are used WITH the rope seal. Thanks

 

[moper]

I used the Felpro part number to search the sites. I get them at the local Car Quest - $7 each. I bought 6 this last time. The big block has stuff rubber side seals that extend from the oil pan gasket surface to the block at the top of the cap. The small block has smaller seals that sit between the cap and block in a groove in the cap. They extend out past the sides of the cap and help seal the corners of the oil pan at the cap/block junction.