440 engine Cam

[CudaGapCuda]

Not sure were to put this question for my fellow gear head, I have a 440 that I'm re-assembling that I just took apart it was a complete engine that had everything assembled but someone had removed the cam and lifters. I took it clear to the crank and this is what I have to work with. It should be noted all components are in excellent shape.
1. Forged crank ground 0.10 under
2. Rods 6-pac #2951908 0.10 under
3. Pistons #L2388 0.60 over down in bore 0.15
4. Block G440 HPA date 2-10-71
5. Heads 1967 HP 915's 78.5cc
6. Intake 1966 cast iron 4 barrel
7. Exhaust factory R 375171 N2 and L 3751068-2D date 1-29-73

I need to select a cam and lifters but seeing how it is a collection of different parts I,m needing help on the selection im going to be running this in a 1971 Cuda clone, the 727 built by a good transmission shop something will handle as much 600 hp, stall of 1800 to 5600 kinda the goal, running a Sure Grip 3:91 8-3/4

I would like to be somewhere close to 450 hp

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Happy to call & discuss with you if you send me your number in a private message

 

[Righty Tighty]

 

[CudaGapCuda]

Chryco, im not sure how to send a private message on this site but if you direct me in how I will sure send you my contact. and a little more information I had sent an e-mail to Oregon cams with the information I show above and received this response back form them.
Hydraulic Flat Tappet cams
1. 224/230 @ .050", 268/280 adv, .477"/.480" lift, 110 sep. 1600/5800 rpm, converter
2. 230/236 @ .050", 274/286 adv, .488"/.491" lift 110 sep, 1800/6000 rpm, converter

 

[Chryco Psycho]

up near your name at the top right side there is a small envelope click that to send a message .
We can do better on the cam

 

[MoparCarGuy]

Chryco, im not sure how to send a private message on this site but if you direct me in how I will sure send you my contact. and a little more information I had sent an e-mail to Oregon cams with the information I show above and received this response back form them.
Hydraulic Flat Tappet cams
1. 224/230 @ .050", 268/280 adv, .477"/.480" lift, 110 sep. 1600/5800 rpm, converter
2. 230/236 @ .050", 274/286 adv, .488"/.491" lift 110 sep, 1800/6000 rpm, converter

Those are some very mild cam choices. They won't put you above 400hp (330-350hp at the tires) using the factory items on your parts list.
The combination you have now can improve with a few top-end changes and a set of headers. The bottom-end will work fine.
It is your call on what drivability you desire and your budget. FYI - Larger cams typically hurt bottom-end and do not make good vacuum for power brakes.
Your list with comments:
1. Forged crank ground 0.10 under GOOD
2. Rods 6-pac #2951908 0.10 under FAIR, these rods are heavy and the extra strength is not needed for the 450hp you are aiming for.
3. Pistons #L2388 0.60 over down in bore 0.15 FAIR, these are low-compression TRW/Sealed Power pistons. Flat-top pistons at zero deck with valve reliefs would have yielded more compression and better quench/flame travel in the cylinder.
4. Block G440 HPA date 2-10-71 GOOD
5. Heads 1967 HP 915's 78.5cc FAIR, 55 year old head technology cannot flow anywhere near what new aluminum cylinder heads can achieve.
6. Intake 1966 cast iron 4 barrel POOR, consider changing to an Edelbrock Performer RPM dual-plane to keep bottom end torque and add high rpm flow.
7. Exhaust factory R 375171 N2 and L 3751068-2D date 1-29-73 POOR, late-model, cast-iron exhaust manifolds for the 440 will cost you 30-40hp when compared to a set of 1-3/4' to 1-7/8" primary, long-tube headers. TTI and Doug's headers in 1-3/4" will fit a bit better and still do the job. If you are dead set on cast-iron, get the earlier HP exhaust manifolds (2899879-right & 2951865-left) which flow better than the 1973 castings.

I am not knocking your combination, just pointing out where you can make a few changes to get the air flow up and out of the engine which will equate to more horsepower. It is all about expectations for the combination, your budget, and drivability.

 

[Chryco Psycho]

The Holley street Dominator is also an awesome intake to use & lower .

 

[CudaGapCuda]

Awesome Knowledge Chryco

With that information it looks like I need to see how much money I want to put to this build. I was given the engine from a close friend that he was going to put in his 60 Dodge 2 door Seneca but ended up selling the car so I have no money invested yet, hence the complete tear down and inspection along with identifying engine components. Looking at what you are seeing Chryco them I'm looking at intake manifold and headers that would be the best options at this point and would make the best improvement then a cam selection would be in order to try and reach my 450 HP.

 

[CudaGapCuda]

Chryco I tried to PM you my number but your inbox is full

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Sorry , I emptied it now .

 

[CudaGapCuda]

MoparCarGuy your information is great , I have a quick last question as I am counting my mopar buck to see what i have to put into this build. Do they make a piston that would be closer to deck height to bring up the compression to say 9.5 to 1 or better that you don't have to worry about the valves contacting for a better cam selection. Side Note: Cleaning and Detailing Cuda for car show this week-end.

 

[MoparCarGuy]

MoparCarGuy your information is great , I have a quick last question as I am counting my mopar buck to see what i have to put into this build. Do they make a piston that would be closer to deck height to bring up the compression to say 9.5 to 1 or better that you don't have to worry about the valves contacting for a better cam selection. Side Note: Cleaning and Detailing Cuda for car show this week-end.

Yes, there are off-the-shelf pistons that will provide zero deck and adequate valve reliefs for valve-to-piston clearance. You have to decide whether you will ever put nitrous on the engine or not. Nitrous forces you to use forged alloy pistons. If you are not going to ever use nitrous then a great choice is to go with hypereutectic pistons. They are stronger than regular cast pistons (up to 600hp) and are high-silicon content which provides the strength, heat resistance, and less thermal expansion for tighter piston-to-wall clearances. Consider these <link> Keith Black 237.060 Hypereutectic pistons from Hughes Engines. <link> They are 4.380" bore (you indicated you were .060" overbore) and yield good compression ratios based on your chosen head's chamber CCs. Matching ring set is linked on the same page.
Compression Ratios
cc's
72-11.5
80-10.6
85-10.2
90-9.7

There are also complete top-end power packages with everything including the cam but you may want to call Hughes to tailor a package to suit your expectations.

 

[CudaGapCuda]

Pricing our the Hughes top end kit HUG 2045, I'm looking at $2628.58 plus some miscellaneous cost of $500 to $800, + new 727. I have one last question if I just buy a cam and lifters and use all the parts I have what would your estimates be on HP using the best cam and Lifter to fit the parts I have. Running the numbers using some of the Compression calculators on the web I come up with 8.23 to 1 compression here is a recap of the parts I have. My thoughts is the less money I put into the engine the more I have for other needs on the Barracuda, Cuda clone
1. Forged crank ground 0.10 under
2. Rods 6-pac #2951908 0.10 under
3. Pistons #L2388 0.60 over down in bore 0.15
4. Block G440 HPA date 2-10-71
5. Heads 1967 HP 915's 78.5cc
6. Intake 1966 cast iron 4 barrel
7. Exhaust factory R 375171 N2 and L 3751068-2D date 1-29-73

Happy 4th of July all

 

[Steve Blair]

Good morning CudaGapCuda,
Just thought I would share my experience building a 440 for my 71 Cuda.
1. A 73 440 Block from a motor home (bored 30 over, line bored, decked so pistons are at 0 deck height, lifter bores were aligned),
2. 512 stroker kit from 440 Source (forged crank, Keith Black forged piston, Chrome Molly rings, new connecting rods with floating pins),
3. Factory windage tray,
4. Double Roller timing chain,
5. Fully assembled aluminum heads (not machine ported) from 440 Source,
6. 1.6 Roller Rockers from 440 Source,
7. Comp Cams Extreme Energy 488/488 Lift cam (that I believe changed to a 511/511 lift with the 1.6 rockers),
8. Edelbrock RPM intake (running a shaker hood and this intake is too tall so I switched this to a CH4B),
8. MSD 6AL ignition box and MSD distributor (I believe 36 degrees total advance),
9. A Holley Street Avenger 870 CFM carb with vacuum secondaries,
10. TTI 2 inch headers with 3 1/2 inch collectors (I may lose some low end torque but TTI said these headers would work with a quick ratio pitman arm and they do!).

The engine produces 14 inches of vacuum at idle so I have good vacuum for power brakes, 600 FT lbs. of torque at 4000 RPM so even with 2 inch primary tubes on the headers I have good torque, and 540HP at 6000 RPM (HP was still climbing).

The shop with the Dyno said I should run a carb with mechanical secondaries so I may change the carb in the future.

Hope some of my info was helpful!

 

[MoparCarGuy]

Pricing our the Hughes top end kit HUG 2045, I'm looking at $2628.58 plus some miscellaneous cost of $500 to $800, + new 727. I have one last question if I just buy a cam and lifters and use all the parts I have what would your estimates be on HP using the best cam and Lifter to fit the parts I have. Running the numbers using some of the Compression calculators on the web I come up with 8.23 to 1 compression here is a recap of the parts I have. My thoughts is the less money I put into the engine the more I have for other needs on the Barracuda, Cuda clone
1. Forged crank ground 0.10 under
2. Rods 6-pac #2951908 0.10 under
3. Pistons #L2388 0.60 over down in bore 0.15
4. Block G440 HPA date 2-10-71
5. Heads 1967 HP 915's 78.5cc
6. Intake 1966 cast iron 4 barrel
7. Exhaust factory R 375171 N2 and L 3751068-2D date 1-29-73

Happy 4th of July all

I believe you should be able to increase the horsepower by at least 20-30 hp over a stock 440 with just a cam change. Stock 440 automatics put out approximately 350 gross hp even though the advertised hp was 375. After drivetrain losses of 20%, the stock 440s had approximately 280-300 hp at the tires.

For your combo, with a new unknown but larger cam, you might get your rear wheel hp up to 330 hp or so. A definite seat-of-the-pants increase but nowhere near the 540hp (432 rwhp) the Hughes HUG2045 package claims to deliver.
Check out this 440 Build article for some really good info.

 

[Avalanche]

Good morning CudaGapCuda,
Just thought I would share my experience building a 440 for my 71 Cuda.
1. A 73 440 Block from a motor home (bored 30 over, line bored, decked so pistons are at 0 deck height, lifter bores were aligned),
2. 512 stroker kit from 440 Source (forged crank, Keith Black forged piston, Chrome Molly rings, new connecting rods with floating pins),
3. Factory windage tray,
4. Double Roller timing chain,
5. Fully assembled aluminum heads (not machine ported) from 440 Source,
6. 1.6 Roller Rockers from 440 Source,
7. Comp Cams Extreme Energy 488/488 Lift cam (that I believe changed to a 511/511 lift with the 1.6 rockers),
8. Edelbrock RPM intake (running a shaker hood and this intake is too tall so I switched this to a CH4B),
8. MSD 6AL ignition box and MSD distributor (I believe 36 degrees total advance),
9. A Holley Street Avenger 870 CFM carb with vacuum secondaries,
10. TTI 2 inch headers with 3 1/2 inch collectors (I may lose some low end torque but TTI said these headers would work with a quick ratio pitman arm and they do!).

The engine produces 14 inches of vacuum at idle so I have good vacuum for power brakes, 600 FT lbs. of torque at 4000 RPM so even with 2 inch primary tubes on the headers I have good torque, and 540HP at 6000 RPM (HP was still climbing).

The shop with the Dyno said I should run a carb with mechanical secondaries so I may change the carb in the future.

Hope some of my info was helpful!

Not to hijack this thread, but do you have a model number for the headers? I though no header cleared the pitman arm for a 440. Great to know there's an option.

 

[Steve Blair]

The only headers that clear the quick ration pitman arm are TTI with 2 inch primary tubes and 3 1/2 inch collectors. I had to modify the lower bellcrank and pivot shaft and made my own lower transmission shift rod but that was simple. I'm running factory power steering and two tubes on the driver side header needed slight flattening (1/4 x 2 inch long). If you go to TTI's web site you will see the only header that works with a fast ratio pitman arm has 2 inch primary tubes. Sorry I don't have the part number in my paperwork...

 

[1970RTSE]

Not sure were to put this question for my fellow gear head, I have a 440 that I'm re-assembling that I just took apart it was a complete engine that had everything assembled but someone had removed the cam and lifters. I took it clear to the crank and this is what I have to work with. It should be noted all components are in excellent shape.
1. Forged crank ground 0.10 under
2. Rods 6-pac #2951908 0.10 under
3. Pistons #L2388 0.60 over down in bore 0.15
4. Block G440 HPA date 2-10-71
5. Heads 1967 HP 915's 78.5cc
6. Intake 1966 cast iron 4 barrel
7. Exhaust factory R 375171 N2 and L 3751068-2D date 1-29-73

I need to select a cam and lifters but seeing how it is a collection of different parts I,m needing help on the selection im going to be running this in a 1971 Cuda clone, the 727 built by a good transmission shop something will handle as much 600 hp, stall of 1800 to 5600 kinda the goal, running a Sure Grip 3:91 8-3/4

I would like to be somewhere close to 450 hp

I have a similar set up on my 440, with forged pistons, I brought an Edelbrock top end kit , heads, performer intake and Edelbrock matching hydraulic cam. Quikfuel 880 carb. Ran the engine in on a engine dyno with TTI headers pulled 487hp. My next mission is to upgrade the car to a solid lifter and a single plane intake, reasoning is for a more aggressive idle and power. Incidentally the TTI headers were the best add on as they fit perfectly in my 70 RT/SE

 

[MoparCarGuy]

Not to hijack this thread, but do you have a model number for the headers? I though no header cleared the pitman arm for a 440. Great to know there's an option.

It looks like the TTI 1-3/4" Full-Length and the 2" Full-Length headers both say that they clear factory E-body Quick Ratio Pitman Arms.
1-3/4 = "Headers will fit B & E body applications with Quick/Fast Ratio arms."
2" = "Headers will fit 66-76 B-bodies & 70-74 E-body applications with Quick/Fast Ratio arms."

 

[Steve Blair]

FYI - I contacted TTI about using the quick ratio pitman arm with power steering and they told me the headers with 2 inch primary tubes were the only headers that would fit, its been 10 years so maybe they made modifications to the headers with 1 and 3/4 primary tubes. I would contact TTI with the question about which headers work with a fast ration pitman arm and let them know what heads, steering sector, etc. just to make sure the fast ratio pitman arm will work in your application. I'm running 2 inch primary headers and the only modifications I had to make were to the starter splash shield for the relocated drag link, skinnier bell crank and bell crank shaft, and new slap stick lower shift linkage, and a couple flattened spots on the header next to the power steering sector for added clearance (all on the driver side of the engine).
Good luck on your build!