Fast steering- 70 T/A

[VillaTA]

My TA has super touchy steering, and my front tires will rub the frame at full clock. The steering box is not a TA box, with casting #2267262. R5 3190. I think this makes it a B Body steering boxMy Pittman arm is the proforged 103-10031 fast ratio model. I am not used to the speed of the steering, especially over 50 mph. I also need an alignment, as I have some wandering to correct also. My question is - is there a way to get the steering to be less quick? Would changing the Pittman arm correct this or help? Is there a way to stop the tires hitting the frame without a rebuild?
Thanks in advance.

 

[70chall440]

Yes but first you need to get the car aligned to see what effect that has. "Fast ratio" steering usually involves the box, the pitman and the idler arm. From what you wrote your box is probably over pressurized (common Mopar deal) which is giving you the feeling you don't like. You can shim the valve in the box to reduce the pressure and get some road feel back (research the Mopar Action article/s that discuss this in detail).

You can also replace the box or have it rebuilt by someone like Firm Feel. I have 2 of their stage 3 boxes with FR pitman and idler arms and while the steering is precision it is not twitchy.

 

[VillaTA]

What I’m experiencing is that the wheel wants to dart if hit bumps, and generally just feels so loose. Sound like I may need to talk to firm feel. Any ideas on stopping the wheels from hitting the frame?

 

[70chall440]

If the tires are rubbing then I would say they are the wrong size. Now it may be possible to install some stops to keep them from rubbing but you will have a reduced turning radius.

 

[VillaTA]

Rear tires are 275/60/15. Front tires are 245/60/15. Perhaps the large tires are contributing to the quick steering too?

 

[70chall440]

How old are the tires? The larger size in front does contribute to how the car handles/behaves, but the right alignment can negate some of that. You really need to get a good alignment, ensure that the tires are in good repair and are inflated at the proper level and then see how it handles.

 

[VillaTA]

Here is how my front end came back from the shop last week. I don’t believe that they aligned it, but they did replace a passenger lower ball joint. But it is driving as bad as ever and jerking all over the road. The bump steer is also a noticeable problem because the wheel is held straight and it darts with the slightest road imperfections. I am nearly ready to tear apart the front end too. It pops like my back at the chiropractor when going over uneven surfaces or when the weight transfers quickly. I can hear it under my feet. My shop said everything looked good as far as bushings,k frame, etc, and that everything was tight. Any thoughts?

 

[moparlee]

Holy crap man, a blind man could do an alignment better than that! And go get your money back.
Find yourself a reputable shop that can work on these 50 yr old cars.

 

[70chall440]

Yep what the man said, find a new shop. That camber is horrible!!!! This is why I do my own alignments.

 

[70chall440]

Not sure what you know about an alignment but there are only essentially 3 adjustments, camber, caster and toe. In your case the camber is significantly off. The alignment cams on the shock towers under the hood are what adjust camber and caster and in general they can be set per the attached picture and get you relatively close. Toe is adjusted with the tie rods.

 

[fasjac]

Holy crap man, a blind man could do an alignment better than that! And go get your money back.
Find yourself a reputable shop that can work on these 50 yr old cars.

Can you guys share some good specs for a radial tire car? I have to think they would be a bit different from bias ply tires. I had a tech in our shop align mine way before the restoration and it was great. He’s retired now and I don’t know what the settings were. ?

 

[70chall440]

 

[Mopar Mitch]

You will most likely NEVER be able to get desired negative camber with desired positive caster UNLESS you change to aftermarket upper control arms, or at the least... install the Moog K-7103 offset bushings (installed in reverse position). The original factory setup upper control arms simply don't have the available adjustment range or geometry designed into them.

 

[70chall440]

@Mopar Mitch - I was waiting for you to jump into this since you are the resident "handling" guy

 

[70chall440]

So here is a related question; the new Borgeson boxes advertise "fast ratio", would this then mean that you wouldn't need the FR pitman and idler arm or does this mean that if you used the FR arms and the Borgeson box your steering would be "ultra" fast?

I have a FF stage 3 box in my 70 Challenger and my 73 Cuda with FR arms and they are definitely "quick" in terms of steering but not any worse than say my 10 Challenger RT or my 01 Viper.

 

[Mopar Mitch]

My interest prevails in the Borgensen PS box... and I haven't driven a car with it. BUT, in my opinion, their 3.5 turns lock-to-lock, as is their standard setup, doesn't make it a "fast-ratio" setup. Even our T/A setups aren't very fast, at 2.7 turns lock-to-lock, but faster than our regular PS at that same standard 3.5 turns lock-to-lock.

The Borgensen does capture my interest in the claimed tightness of their steering... taking out the common center dead-spot that our Mopar ps boxes have, even after having them rebuilt .... yes... the dead-spot still remains, but not as bad as it was before being rebuilt (mine is a Stage-3 from FF).

Also, the Borgensen ps box does take away front-end weight ... about ~15 pounds at max?... I'd really like to see a direct comparison on a scale, rather than just talk. I'm always desiring to reduce weight!

IF I'd ever run a Borgensen ps box, I'd only run it with the longer Fast Ratio Pitman arm (and the longer C-body idler arm)... and it seems like no one on our e-chat lines has truly tried that setup... show me the results and I'd consider to do it. also, it sill concerns me with the Borgensen box about the installation problems (angularity) with the steering column, as well as claimed noises, etc. I'm just not yet convinced to go for it.

 

[70chall440]

@Mopar Mitch - Well I am going to give it a try in my 71 Charger with the longer arms and see how it works. If I remember i will try and weight them and get back to you. I probably wont be building the car for a little while but right now I am "collecting" parts (read spending a crap ton of money). I have a 5.7 crate engine for it and have recently ordered the oil pan (Holley), controller (Holley), mid plate with accessories (Holley), QA1 single adjustable shocks (Summit, just got today), TKX 5 spd trans (SST), and a stainless gas tank which I am going to install a in tank pump to (probably a Fitech 340 lph unit).

I am getting ready to start focusing on the suspension so I will be ordering the rebuild kit and Borgeson box in the not too distant future.

 

[VillaTA]

Took the day off work so that’s why so many posts today. Took some pics of my car’s undercarriage. Found that both my Pittman and my idler arm are both fast ratio. Knowing that my steering box is not, would this be a reason for the steering being so wonky feeling at high speeds? I’d like to switch back to standard if it will make a difference. I am ready to take the car for an alignment, but I’m gonna get new UCAs, torsion bars and maybe strut rods from firmfeel first and I want to have this guy do the front end work and align all at once. I also want him to diagnose the clunking sounds in the front end. It all seem tight and fairly new.
I noticed that the passenger side tie Rod connector is different than the driver. The last shop did replace a ball joint on that side. Maybe that’s why it’s different.

 

[70chall440]

I doubt the arms are responsible for the "wonky" steering unless they are sloppy in their connections. Putting FR pitman and idler arms onto a "standard" box is common and does not adversely affect the steering in and of themselves. If you are having a steering/handling problem it more than likely is the alignment but it could be any number of things; worn parts, bad tires, bent wheel, sloppy steering box, etc.

 

[fastmark]

One thing that no one has mentioned here. The original TA box was just a C body box that was modified and cast with the TA designation. It has a larger sector gear than other 70 B and E cars. They also modified the box with internal stops so it stops before it can contact the frame. So the sector for a TA is not just a C body sector. Firm feel can rebuild and make your box do what you need it to do. I agree with everyone else. You need a better alignment shop.