Lifter problem
- Thread starter big john
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Juan Veldez
Well-Known Member
Roller, solid, or hydraulic? Flat tappets need the zinc additive for break-in, minimum. And probably every oil change. It is not in the current oils. I use Lucas.
Chryco Psycho
Well-Known Member
Yes I have , the cam was not ground correctly , the lifter should run on 1 side of the cam lobe most of the time except as it lifts where the spring pressure is high & it should go to full contact for the higher loads , the reason for this is by running on one side of the lobe it should rotate the lifter so unless you beat the lifters into the bores & were too tight then the cam should be rotating the lifter if not the cam is badly ground .
On my last rebuild I had 3 flat tappet lifters fail. I am still at a loss as to what caused the failure. I know for sure one of them was the lifter for Cylinder #4 Exhaust. I recall where the other ones were but I labeled each one as i took them out for diagnostic purposes. I will post a picture later. I followed the instructions in the article called "First Fire" almost to the letter. I find it hard to believe the failure was caused by lack of break in lubrication as I had 13 lifters not fail and the lifters that surrounded the ones that failed were good. I also had soaked the lifters in break in oil (high ZDDP) for 3 days before installation.
This is the second time this has happened to me in the last 3 years and I have to admit the first time was my fault. I did a couple of things wrong which explained the failure but this time I really tried very hard to very detailed to do everything correctly. It really sucks that I must now disassemble the engine and clean out any metal in it. I have been doing a lot of research on this problem. Some of the things I have found out are both with people in real life and on YT say that back in the day these camshaft/lifter problems were practically non-existent. I assembled my engine in 2001. I didn't know it back then but my pushrods were too long. Over the years one time it bent a pushrod but no other problems. How the heck did I break in that motor with incorrect pushrods and zero issues? It lasted 18 years. Another thing I learned recently (according to Uncle Tony on YT) is that the lifter must have a slight crown to it. This and the way the cam is ground allows the lifter to spin and as we all know the lifter has to spin to perform properly. I didn't check that when I installed the lifters and I now wonder if I possibly got 3 lifters that weren't ground correctly?
I used Penn Grade 1 break in oil which has the correct amount of ZDDP. I filled up oil pump and filter with oil prior to first start. I primed engine 5 times I turned the engine slowly by hand 90 degrees after each priming. I set up the distributor to fire immediately which it did. I checked oil pressure while priming and I had over 40 PSI.
I am at a loss to explain why the failure. The next time I going with a roller cam which I already ordered. I intend to completely disassemble the block and clean it out as best I can then assemble everything back the way it was but with all new bearings.
This is the second time this has happened to me in the last 3 years and I have to admit the first time was my fault. I did a couple of things wrong which explained the failure but this time I really tried very hard to very detailed to do everything correctly. It really sucks that I must now disassemble the engine and clean out any metal in it. I have been doing a lot of research on this problem. Some of the things I have found out are both with people in real life and on YT say that back in the day these camshaft/lifter problems were practically non-existent. I assembled my engine in 2001. I didn't know it back then but my pushrods were too long. Over the years one time it bent a pushrod but no other problems. How the heck did I break in that motor with incorrect pushrods and zero issues? It lasted 18 years. Another thing I learned recently (according to Uncle Tony on YT) is that the lifter must have a slight crown to it. This and the way the cam is ground allows the lifter to spin and as we all know the lifter has to spin to perform properly. I didn't check that when I installed the lifters and I now wonder if I possibly got 3 lifters that weren't ground correctly?
I used Penn Grade 1 break in oil which has the correct amount of ZDDP. I filled up oil pump and filter with oil prior to first start. I primed engine 5 times I turned the engine slowly by hand 90 degrees after each priming. I set up the distributor to fire immediately which it did. I checked oil pressure while priming and I had over 40 PSI.
I am at a loss to explain why the failure. The next time I going with a roller cam which I already ordered. I intend to completely disassemble the block and clean it out as best I can then assemble everything back the way it was but with all new bearings.
moparleo
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Did you get the lifters from the same manufacturer as the camshaft ?
If so you can contact them as far as potential problems they may have had.
If your lifters were from somebody else, you will have no recourse as they will blame each other.
This another good reason to buy matching components just incase there is a problem.
Mixing parts is not always a good thing. Price ( trying to save a few dollars ) isn't everything and can cost you much more in the long run.
If so you can contact them as far as potential problems they may have had.
If your lifters were from somebody else, you will have no recourse as they will blame each other.
This another good reason to buy matching components just incase there is a problem.
Mixing parts is not always a good thing. Price ( trying to save a few dollars ) isn't everything and can cost you much more in the long run.
MoparLeo, thanks for the response. Yes, the lifters, camshaft and matching valve springs were all from Lunati. The short block was assembled by the shop that did the engine work which included the cam. I did the rest. I never contacted Lunati because I just figured they would blame me and I can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt it wasn't my fault.
Another thing that seems to be the consensus of guys who have YT channels is there are only 2 lifter manufacturers left and one is better than the other. I have not been able to verify if this is true or not. However, when it comes to roller lifters there are a bunch of companies who make them as you can see that they look different. I ordered a Howards roller cam and lifter set. Really hoping to have better luck with that.
What I would like to find out is-is the problem the metallurgy of the lifter or camshaft or are they ground improperly?
Another thing that seems to be the consensus of guys who have YT channels is there are only 2 lifter manufacturers left and one is better than the other. I have not been able to verify if this is true or not. However, when it comes to roller lifters there are a bunch of companies who make them as you can see that they look different. I ordered a Howards roller cam and lifter set. Really hoping to have better luck with that.
What I would like to find out is-is the problem the metallurgy of the lifter or camshaft or are they ground improperly?
moparleo
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You can only do that by contacting Lunati. They have a Warranty department for a reason. They may have had a bad batch of parts. They will only know if people report any problems. You have nothing to lose at this point but a little of your time.
Take any info you find online with a grain of salt. The manufacturers know much more than any online experts. They made the product and it is their reputations on the line.
People online have nothing to lose giving advice.
Whenever you have a problem with a product, no matter what it is, House items, tools etc... always contact the manufacturer first and give them a chance to help you. You will be surprised how quickly you can get things done most of the time.
Take any info you find online with a grain of salt. The manufacturers know much more than any online experts. They made the product and it is their reputations on the line.
People online have nothing to lose giving advice.
Whenever you have a problem with a product, no matter what it is, House items, tools etc... always contact the manufacturer first and give them a chance to help you. You will be surprised how quickly you can get things done most of the time.
Chryco Psycho
Well-Known Member
I agree Lunati will likely replace the cam for you , I use high ZDDP oil for break in , it has to start fast with minimal cranking & be maintained at 1800 rpm for 20 mins , I coat the cams with break in grease , soaking in ZDDP oils will do nothing as the oil will be washed away quickly . The cam ramps up & down as well as the back side [no load] all have to be ground perfectly to rotate the lifters .
Chryco Psycho, I followed the instructions in an article called "First Fire" which was in Mopar Action. I set up the distributor the way it said to in the article and she fired right up. I had the carb linkage set so that it would not idle but run at much higher RPM (approximately 2000) which it did. However, after about 4-5 seconds of running it stalled. I assume the engine was cold. I noticed I had a fuel leak. So I shut off the ignition. After repairing the fuel leak I tried to start it but I forgot that I had turned off the ignition. After about 3-4 seconds of cranking I knew something was up so I stopped cranking it. I realized the ignition was off so I turned it back on and she fired right up again and I ran it for 20 minutes. At some point in the 20 minutes I could hear a noise. I am not sure if I remember correctly or not but I don't think the noise was there initially. I should have turned it off as soon as I heard the noise but I guess I just didn't want to believe it. After the 20 minutes I let it idle and I could hear the noise very clearly. I shut it off and found that one lifter wasn't pumped up. At that point I thought maybe all I needed was one new lifter but upon further tare down I found the 3 lifters that failed.
I followed the "First Fire" article to the letter with one exception. I couldn't rotate the crank and prime the engine at the same time because I was by myself. So I rotated the engine 90 degrees and primed. I did this 5 times (one complete revolution). I hoped this would be sufficient. Maybe it was that I forgot to turn the ignition back on but I would think with all the priming I did the lifters would not be dry.
When I did the break in initially on this engine in 2001 all I did was coat the cam with Crane Cams break in lube, prime the engine and start it. Then run for 15 minutes at 2000 RPM. I didn't know how to get it to fire up quickly back then so I definitely cranked it at least a little bit too much. I just used the regular oil that was available back then and I didn't soak the lifters in oil. I also had the incorrect length pushrods and the engine lasted for 19 years.
When I had the failure that was my fault 3 years ago a lot of guys said I should have soaked the lifters in oil for a day or two. I felt it couldn't hurt so I did that this time around.
Thanks for the replys. I really hope the 3rd time will be the charm.
I followed the "First Fire" article to the letter with one exception. I couldn't rotate the crank and prime the engine at the same time because I was by myself. So I rotated the engine 90 degrees and primed. I did this 5 times (one complete revolution). I hoped this would be sufficient. Maybe it was that I forgot to turn the ignition back on but I would think with all the priming I did the lifters would not be dry.
When I did the break in initially on this engine in 2001 all I did was coat the cam with Crane Cams break in lube, prime the engine and start it. Then run for 15 minutes at 2000 RPM. I didn't know how to get it to fire up quickly back then so I definitely cranked it at least a little bit too much. I just used the regular oil that was available back then and I didn't soak the lifters in oil. I also had the incorrect length pushrods and the engine lasted for 19 years.
When I had the failure that was my fault 3 years ago a lot of guys said I should have soaked the lifters in oil for a day or two. I felt it couldn't hurt so I did that this time around.
Thanks for the replys. I really hope the 3rd time will be the charm.
Cuda Hunter
Well-Known Member
I'm no engine guy. My good friend has rebuilt hundreds if not thousands of engines over the years. Farmer, deals with irrigation motors daily.
He rebuilt his 428 and put it in his 95 mustang. It's messed up two sets of lifters and one cam. He's pissed. Says he did nothing different from what he's done all his life and they failed. He claims metallurgy.
He rebuilt his 428 and put it in his 95 mustang. It's messed up two sets of lifters and one cam. He's pissed. Says he did nothing different from what he's done all his life and they failed. He claims metallurgy.
Chryco Psycho
Well-Known Member
Same problem here I have built a lot of engines , only recently had issues .
Contact lunati .
Contact lunati .
the factory HP cams lasted pretty long with factory windage treys because they were not as aggressive to aftermarket cams of today and higher lift cams with more aggressive lobes !! so most aftermarket cam fails I have seen do to lack of oil splash cooling the lobes down do to windage treys !! on the street dont run a trey you will eventially eat the lobes an tappets also in high lift an duration cams should not be at idle for long lenth of time ! this applies to flat tappet an hydralick cams ! leave the windage trey in for race cars and solid roller motors that normily run at short periods at a time.
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