Sputtering on Hard Acceleration

[jimkov]

I just changed the oil in my 71 Challenegr RT for the first time. 383 with a mild cam, six pack, and a 4 speed. I contacted the past few previous owners but the paperwork on the engine build from 2018 by Mopar Madness in Colorado was lost and I reached out to the shop but never received the build sheet after a few requests.

I went with Driven HR-6 10W-40 since I'm in West Texas and there are many days over 100 F.

The issue I am having is a sputtering/clunking noise in hard acceleration. It sounds like the noise when you are about to stall the engine at low speeds. It's does not seem like a carb bog. The acceleration is very close to ideal. I'm also having issues with the engine continuing to run after turning the car off.

Drained 4.2L of oil and 4.4L filled it just below the full line.

I changed the PCV valve. The old one had a thin costing of the new oil in it and the carb port it was attached to. I've played with the setting in the car and made it a lot worse. I got it back to the settings I had prior to the oil change but the sputtering/clunking and the enginer runoff on turning the car off still persists.

I'm thinking maybe an internally sticking accelerator pump, leaking piston rings, improper oil grade for my setup, possible over filling due to an after market dipstick. If anyone has any suggestions please share to help guide my next action.

 

[pschlosser]

Okay, several thoughts and ideas. Bear with me.

Are you accustomed to the sound of pinging? when the engine timing is advanced farther than the grade of fuel can tolerate? Is the sound you hear, pinging?

I don't think a (perceived) less than ideal engine oil weight is the issue. But I WILL say, I'm no longer fond of fully synthetics, and have gone back to pure dino oil plus a ZDDP (zinc) additive.

Yea, you want to nail down that clunking. What you describe sounds mechanical, and could be a spun rod bearing, or another issue that may result in a catastrophic failure. Go easy until you work it out.

Dieseling, or engine run-on after shutoff, in my experience can result from a couple of factors. 1. engine timing too far advanced. 2. carbon build up in the combustion chamber. #2 is easily resolved with a water bath. and given that mechanical sound you described, check the timing and maybe back it off a 5 or more degrees, until you figure things out.

leaking piston rings will leak, all the time, and typically result in smoky exhaust and oil consumption. Not just "when you get on it." but if it smokes on hard acceleration or deceleration, let us know. oil weight issue? I'm not so sure. a 10W40 seems well within tolerances. That Driven motor oil is hella expensive, more power to you.

I don't know what carburetor you have, but the Carter AVS variants wont cause this issue, either. The accelerator pump cannot really "stick." The (historically OEM) leather accelerator pump can wear, and pump less, but it cannot really stick, given the way the linkage is set up.

An aftermarket dip stick? Well, if the oil level is wrong, or too low, the idiot light would come on, when the RPMs are high. And if the level were too high, checking the oil after a hard run would show bubbles on the dipstick as the oil became frothy. So both of those are easy to clarify and check.

Too much oil may indeed sputter up into the PCV valve. And if so, into the hose and fitting to the carburetor. That may not be a failing PCV, but I cannot say from my chair.

Can you clarify what you mean or did by the statement "I've played with the setting in the car and made it a lot worse." what setting? from within the cabin of the car? You got my curiosity.

 

[cuda joe]

engine run on . it could be over heating or the idle turned up to high some times people turn up the idle to keep it running because it's not running right . vacuum leak ; bad plugs ;ignition problems ; ect . you could pull out the plugs to read them . google how to read plugs . don;t get on it while it;s making that noise

 

[cuda joe]

first make sure you have good oil pressure

 

[FrankenKuda]

Diesel: Also check that the carb float/s are set right. If they don't shut the flow of fuel off when the bowl is full you'll overfill and it goes right up the vent.
Another thing to look at is the timing chain. Take the distributor cap off. Turn the crankshaft both CCW and CW. Verify the distributor rotor starts to turn almost immediately. If not, the chain is worn and that will throw your timing off both at start up and shutdown. You "may" also see it with a timing light. The timing mark may move around instead of be solid on a mark.
Without knowing your compression ratio, be sure you're fuel is the correct octane level.

Your sputtering/clunking problem may be related to the jets of your carburetor being too large. That's not to say the other opinions given previously are not also very possible. Just for trouble shooting purposes, you could also only run on the center carb and see if the problem goes away. The idle circuits on the two outboard carbs may be contributing too much or they're not shut all the way during idle.

I think the site could add about another dozen+ things that could be contributing factors if not the primary cause.

Cuda Joe is right though. Read the spark plugs. One may not tell the whole story. Pull all 8. Do they look the same and what do they look like? That will tell you a host of problems. While the plugs are out you can try my trick of looking at the distributor rotor to verify the chain appears good. While you have the cap off, look at the electrical and mechanical bits of the distributor. Weights are free and cap/rotor is not burnt or corroded. Be sure the timing is right. Investigate a method called static timing. It gets you past the influence of the vacuum and weights of the distributor.

Good luck

 

[Challenger RTA]

Dieseling or engine run-on is a condition that can occur in spark-plug-ignited, gasoline powered internal combustion engines, whereby the engine keeps running for a short period after being turned off, due to the engine kicking back upon shutdown, drawing fuel through the carburetor, into the engine and igniting it without a spark. That's Dieseling

 

[Challenger RTA]

Just a thought.

The idle solenoid is an electrical device used in carbureted engines, particularly in the 440 Six-Pack setups. Its main function is to prevent "dieseling," which is when the engine continues to run after the ignition is turned off.

• Ignition On: When the ignition is turned on, the solenoid is energized. This causes a pin or plunger to extend, which pushes against the throttle linkage.
• Idle Position: The plunger adjustment allows the throttle blades in the carburetor to open to a preset idle position, typically around 900 RPM.
• Throttle Closure: When the ignition is turned off, the solenoid retracts the plunger. This action fully closes the throttle blades, preventing air from entering the engine and stopping it from running on.
• The solenoid requires a specific wiring setup. A wire connects it to the ignition system, usually exiting the harness near the distributor area.
• If the original wiring is missing, a new wire can be run from the ignition coil to power the solenoid.
• The solenoid is typically mounted on the intake manifold, and it may require a specific bracket for proper installation.
• Improved Street Performance: While some enthusiasts argue that the solenoid is not necessary, it can enhance street drivability by preventing unwanted engine run-on.
• Emissions Compliance: The solenoid also helps meet emissions standards by ensuring the engine shuts down cleanly.

In summary, the idle solenoid plays a crucial role in managing engine idle behavior and preventing dieseling in 440 Six-Pack setups.

What are the benefits of using an idle solenoid in a 6-pack setup?
Using an idle solenoid in a 6-pack setup can help prevent "dieseling," where the engine continues to run after being turned off, by ensuring the throttle valves close completely. It can also improve street-ability by allowing for better idle adjustments, making the vehicle easier to drive in everyday conditions.

What are common issues with idle solenoids in carburetors?
Common issues with idle solenoids in carburetors include difficulty starting the engine, stalling shortly after starting, irregular idle speed, poor acceleration, and increased fuel consumption. A faulty solenoid may fail to open or close properly, disrupting fuel flow and affecting engine performance.

How does the idle solenoid affect engine performance in different conditions?
The idle solenoid helps control the engine's idle speed by adjusting the throttle position, which can prevent issues like stalling or "dieseling" when the ignition is turned off. In different conditions, such as during deceleration or when the engine is under load, it ensures the engine maintains proper airflow and fuel mixture for optimal performance.

​

The posting is from one that I posted a good while back.

It took a little bit to find it again.​

 

[jimkov]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check out the fluids next. I switched from Driven synthetic to Driven conventional. I marked by oil catching bucket at it was just under 5 qts with the oil filter so no reason to think it was overfilled like I thought earlier.

I think the dieselling is being caused by my secondaries on the six pack being kept open after flooring it. I had them set where they would close correctly before the oil change.

What about an oil change would cause a change in vacuum? I check around the carb mounting plates with some carb cleaner and no drop in RPMs.

I switched the oil today to conventional becasue I read synthetics can cause leaks in Cork gaskets and I have some but they are in great shape. Oil pressure gauge is ready normal and move up and down. It's not stuck.

There is still the issue of the rattling when flooring it in 3rd and 4th. I'm guessing it's my manual trans or something in the heads. It doesn't sound like Exhaust it sounds mechanical. Not a pinging but a rapid clanking or rattling.
The engine was built about 6500 miles ago when the mild cam was installed. Maybe something jn the heads has come loose?

I'll check out the spark plugs and the floats. Could synthetic oil have fouled a spark plug?

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Synthetic could not cause fouled plug unless you have other major problems with ring seal
If you have adjustable rockers they could be out of adjustment but it should make noise at any RPM .

 

[pschlosser]

What about an oil change would cause a change in vacuum? I check around the carb mounting plates with some carb cleaner and no drop in RPMs.

Nothing, I am thinking. Vacuum and oil are unrelated, for the most part.

 

[pschlosser]

I switched the oil today to conventional becasue I read synthetics can cause leaks in Cork gaskets and I have some but they are in great shape. Oil pressure gauge is ready normal and move up and down. It's not stuck.

I switched back to dino oil, too. they seriously lack Zinc and other things that help protect our engines. Even using Dino (or Synthetic) I recommend a zinc additive like ZDDP.

I cooked the valvetrain on a vintage 1980 scooter motor running pure synthetic. On the other scooter, running dino with ZDDP, no matter how I abuse it, it still seems to go strong. Same model. My instinct is pure synthetic allows damage to engine pure dino (with ZDDP) does not.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Maybe something jn the heads has come loose?

There is good info above. Since you don't know the engine. I would do a few test to know the state of the engine. Check oil flow
Remove valve cover and distributor and spin the pump with a drill. Diagnose it. In addition to some mentioned above. Vacumm gage check, Leak down test, compression test, static time it, check timing chain play, vacuum on distributor is working. After the motor is turned off look in in the cab see if it is dripping. It might take a full minute or two. If you don't know the state of the engine you will will when you need to rebuild it.
No saying this is your problem. I had a car that sat for year or more. When I started driving it. It would make a racket. It sounded like it was in the area of the heads. Not ticking but a racet. I removed the valve covers all seemed to be good. Thinking a bad lifter or other.
I ask a trusted mechanic I knew. First thing he ask. What weight oil are you using? I was using the correct oil. Next he ask how many miles did you put on it? 200 to 300 mile I told him. He said drive it. I said why. His response was that the lifters were not pumping up. You need to put some mile on it. I ask how many? His said it can take up to a 1000 miles. It did take just over a 1000 miles and all quited down.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Cut the oil filter open.

 

[jimkov]

Just worked on the front 2 bbls float level. Center and rear have the fuel level just below the level screw. Seal for the float looks good. Couldn't get it set on the car so pulled it and flipped it upside down a set it with a 3/8 drill bit.

I put it on the car and checked level screen and it leaked out a lot more than it should. I then lowered it a few times and it did the same thing. I filled a bowl with gas got it perfect. Now the car will make the noise at a quick start from stop and when flooring it in 4th but third feels strong and not bog. This manual trans isn't the original 4 speed. It's pretty loud. It may be whays making the noise when it's bogging. I didn't think it was a bog causing the issue since all I did was change the oil but improving the front float it helping so now I'll play with the pri.ary and secondaries idle mixture screws.

Still not quite sure how changing the oil caused all this but the issues are improving.

 

[pschlosser]

Still not quite sure how changing the oil caused all this but the issues are improving.

I agree. I don't see the relationship, either.

 

[Katfish]

With the heat, I'd be worried about pinging.
Maybe pull a couple plugs and have a look.

 

[jimkov]

Checked out the idle mixture screws on the two outboards. Each one had a idle mixture screw damaged. They were seized pretty bad. Attempted to use a stripped screw kit to pull them with no luck on either. Just ordered two Promax base plates. Really only needed one with the angled idle mixture screws since the front is clearly accessible but the Promax is cheaper than the OEM plates on eBay.

I'll update you once I get the plates installed.

On a side note, if anyone also has a damaged two bbl base plate let me know. Since I have two damaged I'd like three to make a full set and hang them in my office at work in a frame.