Fuel pump for 318 small block

[shadango]

I have an angry cam in my 318 and have always struggled to get it tuned good for idle --- edelbrock 600 carb -recently tore it all down and cleaned ot all etc and have been tinkering to reset stuff....have the idle as good as it will ever be, but in my tinkering today I had a rude surprise....I can run hard up to 5k hard in first then manually shift to second but when I approach 5k in 2nd, the engine starts to fall flat around 4k.....bad.....cant tell if its gas or spark to be honest....its not "breaking up" like a rev limter/spark would do so I am thinking gas.....

I also saw today on my under hood fuel pressure gauge that the fuel pressure is jumping sporadically at idle or even revving up between 6 down to 4.5 lbs -- real jerky like. ....so I am putting the two issues together and assuming the pump is on its way out after some 12 years of crusies and fun runs....I do have a fuel pressure regulator plumbed in as well fwiw, set at 6 psi.

So anyways.....went to the old interweb/Summit....figured I would pick up a new pump.

As I recall, the block in my 72 Cuda is a 76 318......back some 10 years ago when I was wrenching on it I used a 76 Duster 318 to order my last fuel pump...I found my old notes and had numbers written down.....a #60514 airtex which happens to be the same number as a carter pump... and also 6866, which is listed for a 72 Cuda with 318. I circled (and bought) the 60514.......

Was gonna order the same thing this time on summit but then saw in an ad there that summit also offered a "muscle car fuel pump for small block chrysler"...part 6866...... But oddly the 6866 says it does NOT fit the 76 duster 318 and the 60514 says it fits the 76 but NOT the 72 318.... I had made the same discovery back then I thought the LA motors were all the same throughout the years? I was lured in by the "muscle car pump" since it claims to have premium features for the same price .....heavy duty diaphargm, antifloat valve......I guess the 60514 has been fine all these years til now....but I am curious......the images of the two pumps look the same, same ins and outs,etc etc....wth is the difference between the 72 and 76 blocks as far as fuel pumps????

 

[70chall440]

I am interested to read responses to this because I have always believed that there is a SB and BB pump which are interchangeable and have always treated them this way. I have never had an issue but perhaps I have gotten lucky (doubtful). As far as I know a SB pump is a SB pump with the possible exception of SMOG engines (aka CA compliant) vehicles that had recovery systems stock.

 

[shadango]

I am interested to read responses to this because I have always believed that there is a SB and BB pump which are interchangeable and have always treated them this way. I have never had an issue but perhaps I have gotten lucky (doubtful). As far as I know a SB pump is a SB pump with the possible exception of SMOG engines (aka CA compliant) vehicles that had recovery systems stock.

Yep thats what I always thought /was told too....but places like Summit and Rock AUto all have those two part numbers and all say the same thing...not interchangeable....the specs all looks the same to me...I think back in 2009 I just gave up and got the 76 part and it has worked fine all this time til now....but ya know when they label something "muscle car pump" and then say it wont fit my LA small block I just have to know why! LOL

 

[Adam]

Are they both ethanol resistant? If you use pump gas you might want to make sure..

 

[70chall440]

I am pretty sure they are interchangeable despite what the websites say.

 

[Ele115]

The spring is different in the pumps. I think that is about all. A stiffer spring is going to be the higher pressure pump. From what I have been hearing, the Carter pumps have been horrible the last few years. If you are experiencing drivability with the Edelbrock (carter AFB) carb, the step up springs are really easy to change. With a big cam, you have less vacuum and now the needles may not be staying down at idle or not staying down long enough. You can experiment with different springs, possibly try pink ones. If it is only an issue at WOT it may not be affected by the step ups.

 

[shadango]

The spring is different in the pumps. I think that is about all. A stiffer spring is going to be the higher pressure pump. From what I have been hearing, the Carter pumps have been horrible the last few years. If you are experiencing drivability with the Edelbrock (carter AFB) carb, the step up springs are really easy to change. With a big cam, you have less vacuum and now the needles may not be staying down at idle or not staying down long enough. You can experiment with different springs, possibly try pink ones. If it is only an issue at WOT it may not be affected by the step ups.

re: the pumps being poor --- not happy to hear that....I always thoughts Carters were the "go to" brand.....anything better these days or is EVERYTHING crap anymore? <sigh>

re: the step ups...yeah I have beat that horse to death...LOL....running the lowest ones now - blue....it got me my mixture screws back at least......but still tough to get the idle......only pulling like 4-5 in of HG at idle.....

Part of me wants to scrap the cam and the j heads and try something new so I know whats in there at least....but then I start thinking maybe a new stroker is a better way to go...and then I get into my own head and I put it off for later...LOL....and say I will live with what I have for now.

 

[Ele115]

Well, it sounds like you may be on the right path. Having a good gauge is getting you the data. Sounds like it's very possible the spring or the valve in your fuel pump is worn out. It's easy, as you know, to swap a new one in. You have a heck of a lot of cam in there for a daily cruiser. You may need an Edelbrock 4107 or bigger carb for it and getting decent idle is going to be kind of difficult. Hell, you could probably run dual quads (two 4105's) or a six barrel with decent results. Are the heads worked?

 

[shadango]

SI I ordered the 6866....when it arrived I found out the difference.....the outlet is clocked 45 degrees to the front of the car from where I have it now....would have meant buyin ga new piece of tube and bending...PITA...so I used a brand new spectra premium I found in my garage...bought it some time ago and forgot I had it on hand...LOL

THe dead spot in second appears to be gone....had some weird experience with the fuel pressure gauge/regulator I have on it.......new pump fired up at 9psi...so I tweaked the regulator back to 6.5.

Ran the car some......looked at the the gauge and it was reading 5 psi.....fluctuated some...tweaked the regualtor up again but the MOST I can get is 6 psi.....

Seems to run ok so for now gonna let it go....

One issue I have with the eddy is that it often idles down to 1200 rpm rather than the 750-850 I set it at....it will eventually settle down....if I push hard on the throttle assembly (towards closed) it will idel down correctly. Maybe I need a stronger throttle return spring??

 

[Chryco Psycho]

A better return spring may help , the issue I see is Eddy carbs are really not adjustable for low vacuum , you cannot modify the bleeds to control it correctly ,you would be far better off with a Proform / Holley style carb with replacable bleeds to tune correctly .

 

[shadango]

A better return spring may help , the issue I see is Eddy carbs are really not adjustable for low vacuum , you cannot modify the bleeds to control it correctly ,you would be far better off with a Proform / Holley style carb with replacable bleeds to tune correctly .

So I was wondering if a different carb would be better.....it's been 11 years fighting the problem....lol

Would the Holley route use the same lokar throttle and kickdown cables I have??

I am pretty much ignorant when it comes to Holley carbs.....as far as sizing etc......assume mating one to the Eddy performer intake won't be a problem.....

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Yes the Lokar cables will work with Holley style carbs . They use the same square bore mounting as the eddy carbs do .
318 I would be using a 600 /650 cfm buying any Holley carb will not work , it Must have removable air bleeds for idle & Jetting to be tuned for low vacuum , the best value in my experience is the Proform carbs , they have all the features & work just as well as the more expensive Holley HP or Quickfuel carbs .

 

[shadango]

Yes the Lokar cables will work with Holley style carbs . They use the same square bore mounting as the eddy carbs do .
318 I would be using a 600 /650 cfm buying any Holley carb will not work , it Must have removable air bleeds for idle & Jetting to be tuned for low vacuum , the best value in my experience is the Proform carbs , they have all the features & work just as well as the more expensive Holley HP or Quickfuel carbs .

Are they as "easy" to tweak and change stuff in and out of as the edelbrocks?

Seriously considering this ...but after a decade of tinkering with the Eddy and getting no where new, will probably be lost.....lol

 

[Chryco Psycho]

In my experience yes , you have to learn some different stuff , but the result is far more rewarding .
There are more circuit to alter & more range in the circuits to make changes , Eddys are the worst carbs out there for adjustment .

 

[toolmanmike]

Small block and big block pumps are always different. The small block pump has a long arm that rides on the cam that is bolted to the front of the camshaft. The pump is bolted to the timing cover. Big block pumps have a short arm and use a pushrod that rides directly on a lobe on the camshaft. They are bolted to the block.

 

[shadango]

Soooooooo...took the car out Monday evening, the day after I posted above......and the BRAND NEW fuel pump...a spectra Premium.....DIED. leaked at the weep hole and had NO pressure. Had to get towed.

Finally got a new Carter 60514 pump in today......the box says it was made IN KOREA.

This is why everything is crap these days. The one I HAD on the was 12 years old......probably made in mexico.......

I bought TWO of the carters to have a spare on the shelf...I may throw it in the trunk actually and have it ready for when the new one dies again.....

 

[shadango]

ALso -- I read somewhere that when a mechanical pump fails it can contaminate the crankcase oil with gas.....

When this pump failes it was leaking gas from the weep hole.......should I change the oil?

 

[70chall440]

yes if there is fuel in it.

 

[shadango]

Small block and big block pumps are always different. The small block pump has a long arm that rides on the cam that is bolted to the front of the camshaft. The pump is bolted to the timing cover. Big block pumps have a short arm and use a pushrod that rides directly on a lobe on the camshaft. They are bolted to the block.

smallblock v. big block --- Thats true --- but the ones I am talking about are both small block.......apparently at some point in time they changed the orientation of the output fitting for the hard line.....it is clocked some 45 degrees to the front from where it is on the later model pumps. From the outside, other than that, they look exactly the same.

Rather than find a new fuel line and try t obend my own to make it work with the pump, I just ordered a new (actually two) of the later model carter pumps (not listed as "muscle car pumps"). Will now keep one in the trunk I guess. Shouldn't have to. LOL

As far as the first "muscle car pump" I bought, it's $10 to ship back the pump which cost $20 ...I guess I will just hang on to it in case it ever becomes useful one day.

 

[toolmanmike]

smallblock v. big block --- Thats true --- but the ones I am talking about are both small block.......apparently at some point in time they changed the orientation of the output fitting for the hard line.....it is clocked some 45 degrees to the front from where it is on the later model pumps. From the outside, other than that, they look exactly the same.

Rather than find a new fuel line and try t obend my own to make it work with the pump, I just ordered a new (actually two) of the later model carter pumps (not listed as "muscle car pumps"). Will now keep one in the trunk I guess. Shouldn't have to. LOL

As far as the first "muscle car pump" I bought, it's $10 to ship back the pump which cost $20 ...I guess I will just hang on to it in case it ever becomes useful one day.

Yes, I should have quoted post 5. That's what I wa responding to.