VIN Discrepancy?

[MoparCarGuy]

Hey, just an FYI. I went through my collection of fender tags, last night, and I must say, the SPD and VIN sequence numbers were all over the place. I'm feeling more confident the A30 this is a non-issue. Yes, it's an oddity, but I don't see any evidence of wrong doing with those numbers.

Some examples from the LA plant

VIN Seq	SPD	Order Num	Mylar Date
123997	C05	062467	10-1969
127960	106	132454	03-1970
129284	121	108346	11-1969
131354	205	046515	12-1969
133740	223	156211	12-1969
138898	402	150503	02-1970

Can you post the fender tags you used to create this chart?

 

[Challenger RTA]

Look at post 15.

 

[MoparCarGuy]

Okay, here is some info to rein in this issue. The tag that was presented for BS23H0B322011 is obviously a reproduction tag for multiple reasons.
1. The BS23H0B322011 fender tag has certain characteristics which reproduction tags exhibit that original fender tags do not. I will not elaborate on these identifying features but if you search for the info you will certainly find it and it will assist you in spotting reproduction tags instantly.
That being said, reproduction tags use the correct size alphanumeric dies used on the original assembly lines and the font is always correct. Dismiss any statements saying "that numeral or letter does not look right" on a suspect fender tag. Repro Door VIN Decals are out there with font issues but repro fender tags are font-correct.

2. The BS23H0B322011 fender tag also has multiple errors which expose it as a reproduction. Missing codes and codes that do not ever show up on a fender tag.

A. The SPD of A30 is an error. Why? The SPDs vary slightly from the VIN sequence but assigning a VIN of 322011 which was assuredly assembled with the other 1,339 assembled around April 29, 1970 is not even possible. For the vast majority of cars, the Vehicle Order Number or VON is derived from the sales order form used by the dealership to order the car. Yes, there are unique VONs for cars with special options but the majority of the VONs you will see are from the dealership sales order form and that number is at the top right of the form in red numbers. Below is a stack of blank order forms for 1970 Barracuda. Note the unique VON stamped in the upper right of 113309.​

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The dealership filled out the form and placed the order. The VON followed the car order until an SPD was issued. Orders were placed and filled. Payment was prearranged for each dealership for orders. The SPD was provided to the dealership and the car was scheduled to be built. Delays in production were parts driven but did not result in a car receiving an early SPD with a VIN that was 200,000+ cars off as this fender tag implies. What would happen is the SPD would be adjusted and the dealership informed of the delay. This delay had no effect on the VIN assignment as the planned assembly is being tracked by the VON, not a VIN. The VIN assignment happened later and resulted in a computer-driven link between the VON and the VIN which resulted in the Broadcast Sheets that would follow the vehicle down the assembly line.​

Up to 50 or 60 Broadcast sheets were printed and followed the vehicle down the assembly line. Body VINs were stamped. SPDs at the end of a month like this supposed A30 would have received a Door VIN Decal near the end of the assembly line. BS23H0B322011 was built with the other 1,339 cars produced (average per day) for the two combined Hamtramck assembly lines so a Door VIN Decal of 322011 with a date of 11-1969 for a car built around April 29, 1970 is impossible as the factory had not reached that VIN in November 1969. That door decal is a repro and the A30 SPD mistake on the reproduction fender tag caused it. <Rant over>​

B. First glaring missing option code error. The A01 - LIGHT GROUP has one included option code that is always on the fender tag. See below window sticker details.​

That option is the L31 - FENDER MNTD.TURN INDICATORS. The repro fender tag for BS23H0B322011 is missing option code L31 on the tag.​

C. Second glaring missing option code error. The A62 - RALLYE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER GROUP has one included option code that is always on the fender tag. That option is the N85 - Tachometer. The repro fender tag for BS23H0B322011 is missing option code N85 on the tag.​

D. Third glaring missing option code error. The BS23H0B322011 repro fender tag is missing option code J54 - Sport Hood a.k.a. Hood-Power Bulge which is standard on the Cuda 340. The J54 option code is always on the fender tag for non-N96 Shaker Cudas but may or may not be on the fender tag on N96 Shaker-equipped Cudas.​

E. Fourth glaring option code error. The R35 - RADIO-MULTIPLEX AM/FM option includes the R31 - REAR SEAT SPEAKER-DUAL option. The option R31 option code never shows up on a fender tag whether it was ordered or not but the BS23H0B322011 has R31 on it.​

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I hope this exposes the reproduction fender tag for BS23H0B322011 for what it is. I am not opposed to replacing a fender tag with a repro when it is missing or badly rusted/damaged. It is obvious it is a reproduction and only a Broadcast Sheet, Window Sticker, Invoice, or other dealership paperwork can verify what came on a particular car. The fender tag does not provide proof of options unless it is an original.
It is very difficult to design a repro fender tag even if you do have the Broadcast Sheet. The combinations of packages, required codes, and omitted codes is complicated. Attempting to do so can be futile, especially if you make a mistake and have to redo it for hundreds of dollars.

 

[Mr Cuda]

Hey, I was reading along as always, and just for curiousity checked the vin number of my 70 barracuda.
It will also call into question that 322xxx was built on 430.
My BS23H0B326xxx has a 430 fender tag, and 4-70 door sticker. So that's 4000 vins off for that 430 production date.

 

[Xcudame]

MoparCarGuy, thank you for the education! Very very valuable information. And comparing the fender tags of my 70 Challenger and 71 Barracuda to the repo we're discussing, there's an obvious item missing that owners of original fender tags should notice. IMO, this 340 Cuda is not worth what they're asking and probably should be destroyed if there's no documentation (Broadcast Sheet, window sticker) to tell what it really is.

 

[pschlosser]

and probably should be destroyed if there's no documentation...

This seems excessive. We cannot compel people to be honest, only call them out when they are not.

"You get busted, your car goes to the crusher"

 

[Cuda Hunter]

I think he might have meant destroy the fender tag.

Or apparently not.

 

[Xcudame]

It's what's the California Highway Patrol would do if they found out! Extreme, but breaking the law on several accounts. Maybe if dishonest people were held accountable, there'd be less bogus cars out there. At least we Mopar folks have the best knowledge of our vehicles and their documentation.

 

[MoparCarGuy]

This seems excessive. We cannot compel people to be honest, only call them out when they are not.

"You get busted, your car goes to the crusher"

I tend to err on the side of they were missing the fender tag and chose to replace it without enough knowledge to get it right. It is a shame that the tag has so many errors and they paid good $ for it. Even the Door VIN Decal is an expensive mistake.
Both could be fixed with an original Broadcast Sheet but it ain't gonna be cheap!

 

[Cuda Hunter]

In some ways, having all the mistakes helps those who do their research understand that the tag was a fake. Both good and bad.

 

[pschlosser]

It's what's the California Highway Patrol would do if they found out! Extreme, but breaking the law on several accounts. Maybe if dishonest people were held accountable, there'd be less bogus cars out there. At least we Mopar folks have the best knowledge of our vehicles and their documentation.

I was not aware the fender tag was protected by any regulation, if they don't change the VIN, which is fraud if they do. The options on the fender tag are not subject to the same laws as changing the VIN. Or so I'm thinking.

 

[MoparCarGuy]

Imagine a world where the fender tag reproduction was undetectable, broadcast sheets were reproduced with zero faults, and dash VIN plates were perfectly reproduced (they are overseas but they suck), and every real Mopar was called into question because the greedy were creating cars options that never existed.
Prices would plummet with all of our rarest real cars devalued. Glad that world does not exist and I hope it never does.

 

[Mr Cuda]

A data tag is not used for vehicle identification by the authorities.
If it was, you wouldn't be allowed to not have one.
So it's just a crime against fair value, cloning and purists.
My car is better than yours because look....! , I have it on the tag.
I hate cars shows. Everyone calls my car fake, because they have seen so many recreations of it.

 

[MoparCarGuy]

I was not aware the fender tag was protected by any regulation, if they don't change the VIN, which is fraud if they do. The options on the fender tag are not subject to the same laws as changing the VIN.

Agree. The dash VIN plate and the body stampings are not to be toyed with and are probably felonies if you are number swapping to defraud a potential buyer. The fender tag was installed with screws and is not likely regulated by most states. I cannot rule out some state(s) having a law for tampering with anything showing the VIN.

 

[Xcudame]

All you know for sure is it's a 70 340 cuda. Perhaps has a 4 speed. And was likely built in April 1970 and not October/November of 1969. It could have been a bare bones Cuda with a bench seat and non-rally instrument panel and R11 AM radio. Who knows? Personally, I wouldn't trade my 96 Dodge Neon coupe for it! I really dislike people who lie and cheat. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people who are out there who do. Hopefully we as a group can keep our Mopars more "pure" than other makes.

 

[Lawrence Shaw]

MoparCarGuy thanks for all that work and information. Great intel and very educational.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Forthcoming MY 2¢
When a car is in an accident, severely damaged, and the cost of the repairs will exceed the value of the vehicle, the auto insurance company will probably declare the car a total loss. It is given a salvage title, meaning the vehicle cannot be made fit for the road and will not be able to be registered in most states.And will go to the salvage yard to be recycled in some form or matter.

However, there are some cases where a vehicle with a salvaged title can be made fit for the road again. If the vehicle is able to be sufficiently repaired and can pass state inspections for safety, it may be issued what is called a reconstructed title. A reconstructed title may also be referred to as a rebuilt title. If you purchase a used vehicle with a reconstructed title, you should be able to get it registered in any state.

I and other family members have done this uncountless a number of times. Being forthcoming of the repairs and issues it would be the right thing to do. In the state where I do it requires documentation of parts replace and where they came from with a vin number or a sales receipt. This all has to be presented at the enhanced inspection and the sent to the DMV. I was doing this when the state trusted you to send in the document and pictures yourself. Out of respect for the Talons of woe or whoa the long are of the law. Or the worst case you don't disclose Something pertinent that should be. Like Altered vin or Fender tag for example or the parts replaced. I have dealt with good and some real over the edge people and I have always been forthcoming of the condition. If someone is buying something there is and expected truth from the seller.

Now on the other hand dealing with classic cars or other. Does on think they are going to get the truth that the car was driven only by a little old Lady on Sunday. Documentation is the only thing I would believe in. The car can speak for it's self if you look and don't buy on impulse. There are cars out there for sale at retail price,that are parts cars and would exceeds the value of the car when done. Don't buy into them it artificially inflates the market. As far as what constitutes a Reconstructed car. That's the issue. As said before.[ " When a car is in an accident, severely damaged, and the cost of the repairs will exceed the value of the vehicle, the auto insurance company will probably declare the car a total loss."] This is what the State see's as Reconstructed. A salvage certificate is issued and when done it's a reconstructed title. So if there is no salvage certificate is issued then it can't be a Reconstructed title. or if you alter it so it won't pass state inspection.Then you have to go through the process of a reconstructed title.

My 2¢. If you own or buy a car and pile of parts that you have title or bill of sale in some cases. You can do what ever you want except alter the vin. You can change drive train, body panels, mechanical components ,glass,interior. VIN stamped components replace correctly and in place. Parts of a car come up missing, lost,damaged,stolen or rusted. There is nothing that imply the that would constitute a reconstructed. only if it was altered beyond state statute would allow for on road use. Like 15 off road lights on your vehicles roof. Lights turned on and blinding everyone but you can see everything. Sorry for the long read. some may not no any of this. They get 98¢ in change. This is about the vin not so much about the discrepancy.

 

[Lawrence Shaw]

I got this picture from the seller just now. Here is the transmission stamp of the car. Looks like the tranny was assembled 3090 Jan 12 1970. So clearly not an A30 car. But that has been determined. Looks like it matches the VIN.