• Welcome to For E Bodies Only !

    We are a community of Plymouth Cuda and Dodge Challenger owners. Join now! Its Free!

440-6 vacuum advance line

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
Manifold vacuum will cause the vacuum advance to work against the mechanical advance of the distributor like Chryco Psycho stated. Especially at idle. Read the article I attached above in this post. It's very informative and will explain everything. The ported vacuum is inside the venturi and will always be different than manifold vacuum except at wide open throttle.
 

Kuro

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Messages
17
Reaction score
19
Location
Germany
I did read your article, and I did see this:

5-3-761x1024.jpg


that's what I heard and read and that's why I'm asking.. I probably can live with a bit worse idle for now until I get to swap the damaged part, if everything else works better this way... I could probably even find a way to block the vacuum off somehow on idle if needed..
 

Katfish

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 14, 2022
Messages
322
Reaction score
170
Location
Palm Bay, FL
Mechanical advanced occurs at higher RPM.
Only difference in manifold and ported, is a slight opening of the throttle blades.
Vacuum is vacuum, no magic to work "opposite" because it starts at idle instead of 1500 RPM.
 

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
Fine plumb the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum and drive it! You're not going to like it! Myself, I'd fix the center metering block and run it the right way. There's a reason why your car runs like crap and mine has 250,000+ miles on it!
 

Chryco Psycho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
4,455
Reaction score
2,101
Location
Panama
The carb has a venturi , as air moves thru it creates vacuum below the venturi which pulls in fuel as well but above the throttle plates , the faster the air flows thru the venturi the more vacuum .
Manifold vacuum is the opposite , it is highest at idle so you get full advance at idle decreasing with RPM .
Thus as the vacuum is retarding the timing advance as the throttle is opened , the mechanical is going the other way cancelling each other
 

Katfish

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 14, 2022
Messages
322
Reaction score
170
Location
Palm Bay, FL
Copy and paste:

Find yourself a copy of Timing and Vacuum Advance 101 by John Hinckley.

Here is an excerpt regarding ported vacuum

“PORTED” VACUUM: Now to the widely misunderstood manifold vs. ”ported”
vacuum aberration. After 30-plus years of controlling vacuum advance systems with
full manifold vacuum, that “free” indicator of engine load and fuel mixture, along
came early emission control requirements (seven years before catalytic converter
technology was introduced), and all manner of crude band-aid systems were
introduced to try to reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust
stream. One of these crude, but effective systems was GM’s Air Injection Reactor
(A.I.R.) system, which pumped fresh air into the exhaust ports to “afterburn”
pollutants in the exhaust manifolds. The key to making this system work at
maximum efficiency was retarded spark at idle; with retarded idle spark timing, the
“burn” begins late, and is not complete when the exhaust valve opens, which does
two things that were important for emissions. The incomplete burn reduced
combustion chamber temperatures, which reduced the formation of oxides of
nitrogen (NOX), and the significant increase in exhaust gas temperature ensured
rapid “light-off” and combustion of the hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas stream
when the fresh, oxygen-carrying air was introduced from the air pump.
As a result, these engines ran poorly, and an enormous amount of wasted heat
energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing
them to “run hot” at idle; cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up,
combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.
“Ported Vacuum” was easy to implement – they just moved the distributor vacuum
port orifice in the carburetor from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to
full manifold vacuum) to above the throttle plate, where it was exposed to manifold
vacuum only after the throttle plate opened. This meant that the vacuum advance
was inoperative at idle (retarding idle spark timing from its optimum value), and
these applications also had very low initial timing settings; they were usually set at
four degrees before TDC or less, and some even had initial timing settings as much
as two degrees after TDC. The vacuum advance still worked at highway cruise, but
not at idle, which caused all manner of problems. “Ported Vacuum” was strictly an
early pre-converter crude emissions strategy and nothing more. Don’t believe
anyone who tells you that ported vacuum is a good thing for performance and
drivability – it’s not. Anyone with a street-driven car without manifold-connected
vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and
fuel economy, probably because they don’t understand what vacuum advance is,
how it works, and what it’s for. There are lots of long-time experienced mechanics
who don’t understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so
they’re not alone.
 

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
Sure, ported vacuum started out as an emissions device to help motors with retarded timing, but who here on this site runs their initial timing at factory smog specs? I'm betting almost no one! So we can use the ported vacuum to our advantage and have maximum performance AND fuel mileage! And the article I attached from Mopar Action tells you how to dial in your distributor for max performance and fuel mileage. You all run a PCV valve on your valve cover don't you? It's an emissions device! Prior to that you had a tube that dripped oil on the pavement. I can tell you the motorcycle guys loved that, not!

When I was a little boy I remember seeing family pictures of my dad with GM cars, but all we had during my childhood where Plymouths and Dodges. So I asked my pop how come he didn't have GM cars anymore. His answer, "I can get the same performance from a Plymouth as a Chevy and I better gas mileage with the Plymouth to boot." So use you head and get the best out of your car! We're Mopar nuts for good reason!
 

Kuro

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Messages
17
Reaction score
19
Location
Germany
I didn't know what can of worms I would be opening with this topic, wow.. No reason to be offended or start attacking people, though.. Just because I am not willing to do something to my car only because someone on the internet tells me to, doesn't mean I'm not willing to learn. And just as a side note: the car runs fine apart from fuel consumption being a bit high (which I admittedly can't say for certain as I don't have the car that long).. About 9 mpg seems a bit much for me..

Right now, I only have the choice between no vacuum advance at all and manifold vacuum.. So I will try and find more actual data about that, maybe someone actually did test and document the differences with proof.

I will also try to find someone or read/watch into sixpack carb rebuilding because I do believe something isn't right when the choke is activated - I think the rear carb is leaking a bit out of the venturi port after stopping the engine.. But only when the choke is enabled.. And when I rebuild the carbs, I will get a new metering block and probably return the car to stock even if manifold would proove to be working. Because where I live, they actually check emission regularly...
 

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
I'm not offended and certainly didn't intend to offend anyone here. I'm just telling you a way to get the best performance and mileage. Not wanting to fix an obviously screwed up metering block is your choice. It's your car and you make the decision. You asked a question and several of us tried to explain the difference between ported vacuum and manifold vacuum and why plugging your vacuum advance into manifold vacuum won't work, at least not without additional changes.

As for me, I'll enjoy my 383 70 Challenger that barks the tires when it shifts from first to second gear and still gets 17mpg with a quarter million miles on the beast.
 

Kuro

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Messages
17
Reaction score
19
Location
Germany
Just found this, thought it would be interesting for people stumbling over this topic. It was exactly the test I was looking for:



I won't say that this or that is better. I'm certainly not in any position to do that.. But it looks to me that except cruising and idle the two are pretty similar?



PS: Maybe I'm a bit sensitive, but for me "your car runs like crap" is a bit offensive - especially so if you don't even know how it runs.
 

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
If you what to cherry pick one sentence out of a paragraph and be offended, more power to you! Go back and reread the whole paragraph where I stated to plug the distributor vacuum advance to manifold vacuum. It WILL run like crap!

Regarding the post directly above, "But it looks to me that except cruising and idle the two are pretty similar?"
Where do you think your cars rpm is at most of the time on the street? Cruise and idle!
 

Kuro

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Messages
17
Reaction score
19
Location
Germany
If I tune an EFI car, I advance the ignition in cruise/low throttle for better performance and fuel economy....

I've seen both those videos before. That's why I got confused. But I have asked my questions and maybe someone who actually tested both with documentation will post here..

By the way I already did plug the distributor to manifold and adjusted the ignition in idle just to check if it would be okay.. It ran fine at least in idle and when I gave it a little blip.. I couldn't drive it and also was/ still am scared of not hearing detonation since the car is pretty loud and new to me, so I unplugged and readjusted the ignition after the test.. And I didn't test cold start. So not really much to go by, except that I can't confirm that it would run bad at idle like some say (except of course you don't adjust the ignition) or better like others say.. It ran just fine, pretty much like without vacuum. I can only test manifold atm.. And if I didn't have the blocked off ported vacuum, I wouldn't have to read in the topic as I would just use the stock setup. But since I am in the current situation, I try to make the best of it for now..

But people really are [extremely] divided over this topic. There really are diehard fighters for both sides.. It probably doesn't even matter that much if the car is set up correctly with either is my current guess... At least not in street driving.. I mean.. If people run both and both sides claim their method works fine (or better), they are probably both right in their way..
 
Last edited:

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
Listen to your own experience. Your didn't like how it acted after a blip. Fix the metering block on the center carb, or leave the vacuum advance not hooked up!
 

Kuro

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Messages
17
Reaction score
19
Location
Germany
I never said I didn't like anything.. I said it ran fine in idle and I only gave it a "blip" (maybe 2500rpm for a sec) because I wasn't able to drive that day.. I couldn't tell any problems with the blip
 

Xcudame

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
1,055
Reaction score
763
Location
Southeast Arizona
I find it fascinating that you argue with people that have 40+ years of experience with carburators when this is your first car with carburators! I'm done with this post because I have the balls to realize you have nothing to offer! Just another jerk who bought a 440 six-pack who has more money than common sense! Sale your Cuda and buy a Chevy!
 

Kuro

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Messages
17
Reaction score
19
Location
Germany
I'm not arguing. I'm simply asking questions you don't like or can't answer. I don't want "don't do it" or "do that"..

Sorry, I'm not the kind of person who just does as he is told to because someone has "experience". That is for apprentices. I want to know and understand the technical details.. I don't want to get experience by doing the same thing over and over without questioning if what I'm doing is even right, because for me that's worthless.. If we all just do that, nobody will understand anything any more in a few years.. Other than some people with "experience", I think one can never cease to learn. And if something doesn't make sense to me or I don't understand it, I question that.


BTW I will try manifold vacuum. And no matter if it works or not, I will still want to know why.

Tldr: I want to know how stuff works, not just that it works. And I will keep asking questions, even if it means questioning someones explanation


That is by the way how I earned my money of which I have "more of than common sense" (even though one should think that asking questions instead of blindly following would be common sense, but obviously not everyone agrees with that).

However, I thank you for your time.
 
Back
Top