Dual valve springs during break in asked 1k times

[MerlinsMopars]

This is a question probably asked a thousand times but I don't see any threads on the site here so I have to ask weather I should pull the inner like requested by the manufacturer. The springs are shimmed within .010 of recommended install height. Cam/ lifters and springs are a PKG from lunati. #10200703.
The spring pressures are listed at 115 closed and 336 open. 402 is the spring rate. Cam is .494 intake .513 exhaust 110 cl and I have 1.5 roller rockers. I have seen while researching that the cam lift is spec'd using 1.5 rockers which doesn't make much sense to me but if the rockers are figured into the spec'd lift then it would be considered higher.
Anyway, my question is, do I pull the inner during break in or not? I have gotten so many yes and no answers that while I dread doing it, at least I followed the instructions but also have been told by 2 local machinists, not to waste my time as that is normally only done at higher pressures.
I am really close to firing this motor and using lunati's cam lube, and also have a highly resistant moly paste along with the drivin br30 break-in oil.
I am leaning towards firing it with both springs but then I want to pull the inners also.
I am hoping to hear from the pros on this site. I have read posts on the A body site and the threads are totally mixed as I will probably get here also.
In answering it myself, I also am mixed so that isn't helping but my final opinion is just fire it quickly and run it in at the specific rpms.
Then I want to pull them so I can't blame myself for not following the manufacturer instructions.
I have broken in quite a few cams in this lift range and never had a problem but none were lunati.

 

[moparleo]

Go for it. What can the manufacturer possibly know that you can't find out from an anonymous person on a website.
After all its your money/engine. Let us know how it worked out...

 

[MerlinsMopars]

Go for it. What can the manufacturer possibly know that you can't find out from an anonymous person on a website.
After all its your money/engine. Let us know how it worked out...

Well the instructions aren't cam specific. Just stated if dual springs are used and the spring pressures are normal. I hate to think about the valves bouncing around and dropping valves/ keepers etc.
It is ultimately my decision tho. I have heard nightmares happening either way and not. The people that got me stuck in this state are reputable race engine builders. I am looking for input from others that used these cams. I recently broke in a cam with comparable pressures and lift with no issues and started dyno pulls right after the initial break in but because of the generic instructions and no tech support from lunati, I figure the shaft spring remover is only 120$ and have the time to go that way. Anything can happen during break in and I guess it can go either way. The dyno shop stated that they would leave them in but would take them out if I wanted but I want to skip the dyno this time due to the 750$ charge. Used to be 500$ but I guess he's gouging like the rest of the companies these days. If it was a purple shaft, I would be done without question. I guess I am looking for an answer that I already know but don't want to follow. And could get bit either way. Such a stupid situation at the last stage.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Just like real estate. Location Location Location! Prime Prime Prime. The engine being in spec with all the correct components and assembled correctly Lube Lube Lube. Along with ZDDP and correct oil and mechanical gauge. There will be no problem. After break in cut filter open and inspect. If you have a windage tray may catch metal. This is the last safe guard for stupidity. Not checking! Not priming and observing is the biggest mistake. I think most of us here and other sites have been there a number of times. The only thing that comes to mind ,was the block decked? Bottom line if it's bad cam from the start you can't do nothing about it. except test before you us it.

 

[MerlinsMopars]

Just like real estate. Location Location Location! Prime Prime Prime. The engine being in spec with all the correct components and assembled correctly Lube Lube Lube. Along with ZDDP and correct oil and mechanical gauge. There will be no problem. After break in cut filter open and inspect. If you have a windage tray may catch metal. This is the last safe guard for stupidity. Not checking! Not priming and observing is the biggest mistake. I think most of us here and other sites have been there a number of times. The only thing that comes to mind ,was the block decked? Bottom line if it's bad cam from the start you can't do nothing about it. except test befor you us it.

It was checked but not cut. The heads were taken to 63cc to get the compression where I wanted it tho.

 

[Challenger RTA]

This covers everything I taught him. No just kidding. Everything I come to know and forgot. watch all of them. If you have any doubt go with a different cam and lifter.

 

[Challenger RTA]

In the late 70's early 80's I worked two different machine shops at the same time. The more I learned The less I felt I knew. Automotive and heavy truck and equipment. The one thing I do know is if the lifter bore is out of round or other.It puts more load on the cam and the lifter. The cam has load tapper and it should spin the lifter. if it doesn't it wipes out the lifter crown and the heat treatment is gone same as for the cam. A lot of times the lifter bore is over looked and blame the components or oil. In the videos I didn't see it mentioned or I missed it. The videos enplane it better than I can. That's why I said "priming and observing is the biggest mistake." Key word Observe!

 

[Righty Tighty]

This is a question probably asked a thousand times but I don't see any threads on the site here so I have to ask weather I should pull the inner like requested by the manufacturer. The springs are shimmed within .010 of recommended install height. Cam/ lifters and springs are a PKG from lunati. #10200703.
The spring pressures are listed at 115 closed and 336 open. 402 is the spring rate. Cam is .494 intake .513 exhaust 110 cl and I have 1.5 roller rockers. I have seen while researching that the cam lift is spec'd using 1.5 rockers which doesn't make much sense to me but if the rockers are figured into the spec'd lift then it would be considered higher.
Anyway, my question is, do I pull the inner during break in or not? I have gotten so many yes and no answers that while I dread doing it, at least I followed the instructions but also have been told by 2 local machinists, not to waste my time as that is normally only done at higher pressures.
I am really close to firing this motor and using lunati's cam lube, and also have a highly resistant moly paste along with the drivin br30 break-in oil.
I am leaning towards firing it with both springs but then I want to pull the inners also.
I am hoping to hear from the pros on this site. I have read posts on the A body site and the threads are totally mixed as I will probably get here also.
In answering it myself, I also am mixed so that isn't helping but my final opinion is just fire it quickly and run it in at the specific rpms.
Then I want to pull them so I can't blame myself for not following the manufacturer instructions.
I have broken in quite a few cams in this lift range and never had a problem but none were lunati.

Why anyone who isn't a professional wouldn't follow the manufacturer's instructions is beyond me. Cams can get wiped for many reasons, and as mentioned to you in your thread on FABO, the intent is to stack the odds in your favor by doing everything you can to reduce any possibility of failure.

Let's say you leave the inners in, you fire it and the cam fails 100 miles later. I'd feel pretty stupid. Or you pull the inners and it still fails. At least you know you did everything you could.

So, do what you're gonna do. To me, it sounds like you're trying to gain votes for leaving the inners installed so that you don't have to do the extra work instead of following the manufacturer's instructions. But that's just how it looks from the sidelines.

 

[MerlinsMopars]

Why anyone who isn't a professional wouldn't follow the manufacturer's instructions is beyond me. Cams can get wiped for many reasons, and as mentioned to you in your thread on FABO, the intent is to stack the odds in your favor by doing everything you can to reduce any possibility of failure.

Let's say you leave the inners in, you fire it and the cam fails 100 miles later. I'd feel pretty stupid. Or you pull the inners and it still fails. At least you know you did everything you could.

So, do what you're gonna do. To me, it sounds like you're trying to gain votes for leaving the inners installed so that you don't have to do the extra work instead of following the manufacturer's instructions. But that's just how it looks from the sidelines.

True that. Installed and removed 3x playing the guessing game. 1 more time isn't going to hurt me anymore. At least I can take the malfunctioning off of myself somewhat. Lifters do all spin but better chance I suppose.

 

[Challenger RTA]

This is the answer you are looking for. I just want to add that a Diesel engine can idle for a long time it's built that way. A gasoline engine is not meant to idle for long periods of time. Here is the explanation of cam and lifter relationship. Watch the hole way through you will get you answer.

 

[MerlinsMopars]

Thanks for the videos. I am going to watch them all shortly.

 

[MerlinsMopars]

This is the answer you are looking for. I just want to add that a Diesel engine can idle for a long time it's built that way. A gasoline engine is not meant to idle for long periods of time. Here is the explanation of cam and lifter relationship. Watch the hole way through you will get you answer.

Awesome! The video was great. I think I have those coated lifters sitting on the shelf for another motor and might change em out if so Gonna check that out. Also taking the inners back out. They suggested taking the dampeners out too if I am not mistaken. I am not so sure on the 300 miles without the inners tho. I am officially following all the guidelines to limit any damage per instructions along with all the helpful information I am getting. The springs that are used are only 115/336lb and installed currently are around 125 closed. I figure that may relax after the break in tho.
The open psi was what made me even think.
Closed without the inner springs was around 80 psi.
It was a lot of work to install the inner and outers with a standard spring compressor. You have to push hard to get the keepers in place with the inner not being compressed and would be really hard when the motor is in the car for me. I don't want to be laying all over the fresh paint and been looking for a shaft mount compressor that is stabilized and the only one I found was the lsm with adapter which taps me for close to 300$. I surely don't want to be holding some flimsy tool down while trying to install the keepers. Damn, where did the ole days go?
Machine work, assembly, simple run in, and done. Uggh!.
Oh yeah, it changed to, how many $1000's in the bank and pay someone else because they changed it....lol. any event, springs out, good oil and cam lube, fully primed with lifters spinning and low spring psi, following idle and timed instructions is where I will go from here. Gonna suck that way but it is what it is.
Thank You All!

 

[Challenger RTA]

Remember after break in cut filter open for inspection. if good leave break in oil for 400 - 500 miles.

 

[MerlinsMopars]

I realize that I, or other members might be swayed in their own decisions about the thread and there is no blame going around here as to the outcome. I just like different opinions. I have been heated up with my own decision to the point where I want to just go ole school and get it over with. Foolish as may be but I am following the new guidelines.

 

[Xcudame]

Pre-oilling while running the pump with a drill motor and piece of hex stock and slowly turning the engine over by home is the real key. Make sure you have lots of oil up top. You're not dealing with a monster lift/duration cam and supper stout springs. The key to breaking in a cam is the engine needs to fire up right away without dying and the RPMs held around 2500 to 3000 for 20 to 30 minutes. The engine shop I worked in years ago had "run-in" stand that turned the engines they built to about 2500 rpm with copious amounts of oil. Let's just say the amount of come-backs that shop had were less that 0.5%!

 

[MerlinsMopars]

Remember after break in cut filter open for inspection. if good leave break in oil for 400 - 500 miles.

Didn't check the filter on my last break in but did run that oil for a while. Lost a few qts thru the rings I suppose but eventually changed it and was black but no metal that I seen. I will cut this one up tho.

 

[Challenger RTA]

I think that more the opinion. run that oil for a while. manufactures recommendations sometimes Question. experience counts. I'm not an expert but I learned from mistakes of others.

 

[MerlinsMopars]

So wh

Pre-oilling while running the pump with a drill motor and piece of hex stock and slowly turning the engine over by home is the real key. Make sure you have lots of oil up top. You're not dealing with a monster lift/duration cam and supper stout springs. The key to breaking in a cam is the engine needs to fire up right away without dying and the RPMs held around 2500 to 3000 for 20 to 30 minutes. The engine shop I worked in years ago had "run-in" stand that turned the engines they built to about 2500 rpm with copious amounts of oil. Let's just say the amount of come-backs that shop had were less that 0.5%!

So on a dyno, it can spin the motor without it running at 2500+ for break in? I was wondering if you could do that but then no heat really. Idk. Never asked that but thought about it.

 

[Challenger RTA]

This is where I would learn from you mistake.

 

[Challenger RTA]

I never had a motor on a dyno.