Engine won't Turn

[dmc8163]

I have a '70 Challenger w/a MP 426 crate motor. One day the car is runinng fine but when I stop I see the.fan has impacted the radiator and ruined it.Next I can't get it to turn over enough to start. You turn the key and all you get is "Err" It sounds just like when the timing is way off-too advanced. I manually turned over the engine to insure it was free. Then I brought #1 up to TDC compression and set the distributor. The manual says TDC for a manual trans 426. Still won't turn-like its locked up. Changed starters w/new mini-starter no help. I have Schumacher Hemi conversion mounts and a Hemi K-frame. Engine mounts look ok visually. I don't even know if these two problems are related. I want to get the engine started and then deal with the fan/radiator nightmare. Can anyone help me?

 

[challenger6pak]

There are a lot of variables
here. We will have to ask you questions and from your answers we will narrow it down. First why did the fan hit the radiator? Did the water pump come apart? Second. Have you tried to crank the engine without any spark plugs in it. Will it turn without compression or is there a mechanical blockage not letting it turn?

 

[moparleo]

Do you have a fan shroud ? I know you said you have Schumacher motor mounts, but if the fan hits the shroud and the radiator it is usually an indication that the engine has either torqued up or dropped down. Both cause fan damage. But you seem to have more than one issue. As challenger6pak says its best to fix one problem at a time. Did you try to crank the engine with the plugs removed as Challenger6pak asked ? Can you get us a picture of the front of the engine/fan area so we can see what you see?
Thanks

 

[DetMatt1]

Hopefully its nothing major but it don't sound good.

 

[dmc8163]

Thank you all for responding. I'll try to answer your questions in logical order. Backing up a bit and in order. This all started when the engine would not turn over sufficiently to start. It sounded the engine sounded exactly like it would not start because the timing was off. I messed with the time for hours and with the help of starter fluid got the engine started. I reset the timing to 2 1/2 degrees BTC and blipped the throttle a couple of times before getting ready to take a test drive. I smelled coolant and when I raised the hood was hit by hot coolant spray. I shut down the engine and discovered that the fan had somehow impacted the right (driver) side of the radiator. A fan blade was bent dramatically and a circular gouge had been taken out of the radiator. I use a factory correct shroud.

I pulled the radiator to have it recored. When I went to loosen the four fan bolts the did not feel as tight as they should have been. I also run a 1" spacer to position the fan 1" from the radiator. After I got the radiator back I installed it along with the repaired fan and a 1/2" spacer. I was careful to torque the fan bolts this time. Again, the car wouldn't crank freely. I used a 1/2" socket to turn the crank and it turned freely. I did not remove all the plugs but I did remove the #1 plug several times when setting TDC manually using the socket wrench. Just as suddenly and using starter fluid the engine finally started after several hours. I reset the timing to 2 1/2" BTC and took it for a test ride. As I came into the garage I again smelled coolant. The fan had again hit the radiator in exactly the same patter although the gouge was not nearly as deep. Removed radiator for repair.

Re-installed repaired radiator. Inspected motor mounts visually and checked bolts for tightness and all seemed ok. No luck starting engine. Same symptoms, like the timing is off. Pulled mini-starter and inspected flywheel teeth - all ok. Discarded factory heat shield and installed a new high torque mini-starter. Reset engine to TDC manually using gauge and socket wrench. Using brass gauge reset all eight distributor pickups to recommended .008. No joy, no improvement engine still will not turn over more than about 90 degrees. Though unnecessary installed new starter relay. No difference.

I have a March pulley on the water pump and test by hand the water pump seemed solid. I will remove the pulley and check the pump more closely. The fan clutch has a very small amount of play in it - not nearly enough to cause me concern. I have placed an engine hoist over the engine and lifted the engine just enough to take the stress of the engine mount bolts. Today's goal is to get a good look at the mounts, remove the bolts and left the engine far enough to remove and inspect the mounts. Contacted Schumacher and they opined it sounded like a broken motor mount. Will advise asap. Thank you Dave

 

[moparleo]

You say you set timing at TDC before you try to start engine . Then you say that you got it started with engine spray and reset timing to 2 1/2 degrees and went for a test drive. Was this 2 1/2 degrees while it was running? Is the vacuum advance disconnected when you check/set timing ? It takes 3 things for an internal combustion engine to run properly. (1) fuel. Have you checked for fuel pressure/volume at the carb? accelerator pump working? Linkages working properly, choke adjusted and working? (2) compression/initial timing. Done a wet compression test yet ?Remove valve cover and check for damaged components and proper functioning valve train. (3) Spark. Check all primary ignition components such as proper spark plugs/gap and condition. Cap, rotor, wires, ignition coil, ballast resistor, cpu ( electronic ignition control box.. Oxygen is a given .

If the engine has ever run without problems before, this should be your punch list of things to check. Only check one system at a time, and check all items of that system thoroughly before you go to the next item. Unless something is physically broken you should eventually find the problem/problems.

 

[challenger6pak]

Do you have a ground strap from the engine to the firewall, preferably the voltage regulator? How good is your battery? Do you have a way to test it under load?

 

[dmc8163]

Yes, I previously ran a battery cable from the engine block to the frame rail to ensure good engine ground. I thought that might be the problem.

 

[dmc8163]

Yes, according to the service manual a 4-speed manual, 426 Hemi, '70 Challenger the correct timing is TDC to 2 1/2 degrees BTDC, When running I reset it to 2 1/2 degrees BTC. After the engine ran 15 minutes I turned it off, I immediately tried to restart it and once again all I got was "err." I believe it only started at all because a) starter fluid in carb and b) the engine was at the perfect spot to sart immediately when the key was turned, Why, I don't now. Oh, vacuum advance hose always pulled and plug when setting the timing. I have an electric fuel pump and a pressure gauge near carb. It reads around 8 psi when key is on. Fuel squirts into carb when I press the throttle linkage which I think means the acc. pump is working (single carb is new out of box Holley 850). Manual choke is working properly. Engine is brand new MP crate motor with less than 50 miles so I haven't done any compression tests. Will pull valve covers to check for damaged drive train. All ignition components, including ignition switch in steering column are new. New Orange cpu and ballast resister. Added one wire 107 amp Tuff Stuff alternator. Ran alternator wire to starter relay switch per instructions. The engine has run properly before but starting has always been a problem. Replacing engine & dash harness seemed to solve the problem. There is really no parts in this car that either NOS or new repop. The only thing I have not checked and re-checked is the valve train. Could a broken motor mount have anything whatsoever to non-start condition? Thanks again for your help.

 

[moparleo]

Broken motor mount would be a different problem. One thing You said the timing was set at 2 1/2 degrees BTDC. Is that when it is running at idle ? Try setting at 12 degrees btdc when idling at 700-900 rpms.

 

[challenger6pak]

Did you ever remove the plugs and try to crank the motor with no compression?

 

[DetMatt1]

I don't have any personal experience with Hemi's but I'm surprised to read that the suggested timing is only 2 degrees btdc. Big block Mopars generally respond to more advance, I'm with Leo on adding to the advance by ten degrees. The whole fan in the radiator thing has me stumped though...
Are you using a factory style fan?

 

[dmc8163]

Out of town until Monday. But will do on Tuesday. Why 12 degrees? How can I set it to 12 degrees w/o the engine running? Thanks, Dave

Broken motor mount would be a different problem. One thing You said the timing was set at 2 1/2 degrees BTDC. Is that when it is running at idle ? Try setting at 12 degrees btdc when idling at 700-900 rpms.

 

[dmc8163]

No, I did not do this. The reason is that the engine (and flywheel) will rotate if I manually rotate the crankshaft. AHA moment. You mean will it crank with the starter when all the spark plugs are out. I don't know but I will find out on Tuesday and let you know. Dave.

 

[dmc8163]

The fact that you both recommend the timing be set to 12 degrees makes me wonder if I am reading the 1970 factory manual correctly. I will pull the language out of the manual on Tuesday and post it. Again, how can I get near 12 degrees BTDC w/o out the engine running? I know I can get the engine to TDC on the compression stroke. And I know that a Hemi rotor turns counterclockwise. But I'm lost after that. E.g., to get to 12 degrees do I turn the dist. clockwise or counterclockwise? And how far? Literally about 12 degrees on the 360 degree circle? 1/4" maybe? Oh, yes I have a factory fan & clutch & shroud for a 1970 426 Hemi. Dave

P.S. I am very excited about the 12 degree advice. I have always thought this problem was timing related but doggedly followed the manual, or at least what I thought the manual said. If I could just solve the no-start situation it would be a miracle and allow me to focus on the fan/radiator/motor mount problem.

I have been thinking about this for hours and I begin to see what I did. I "messed with" the timing/distributor until I finally got the engine to start no doubt somewhere around 12 degrees BTDC. Then, in my infinite wisdom, I immediately set the timing to 2 1/2 degrees BTDC with a timing light because I thought that is what the manual told me to do. Of course, when I shut the engine off and then tried to immediately re-start the engine the timing was now so far off it wouldn't even crank. Can't wait to test this out but the wife won't go home a day early. Rats.

 

[Yatzee]

Let's start with the radiator issue. Not sure why you would have to use a spacer - with a shroud you don't need the fan that close. Sounds as if the fan blades are deflecting ( or just one ) being close to the rad is not advisable. Because the damage is on one side only, the fan deflected towards the other side. The slightest movement in a viscous drive ends up being a whole bunch out at the tips of the blades. Same holds true when the fan is directly mounted to the water pump flange. By the way, check the disk flange on the end of the pump shaft to see if it's bent or has a lot of run out. You can start the engine and run it a short period with out the fan attached for diagnostics - just keep an eye on the temperature. It's not only cheaper than buying a new rad but you can see what's going on at the water pump shaft more so than with spinning fan blades. Inspect the fan thoroughly for cracks and loose rivets caused by long term blade deflection. After mounting the viscous clutch ( if you have one ) check the run out of the unit with a dial gauge touching on the perimeter of the housing where the front and rear housings are bolted together - there should not be any. If there is no viscous clutch check that the forward distance of each blade is the same when mounted on the pump flange. You
can do this by mounting a temporary pointer and spinning the fan by hand with no drive
belt attached. If there is any deflection forward or sideways from the water pump shaft
forward it's time for new ( not budget ) parts or the next incident might be an air scoop
in the front of the hood where you don't want one. Always use extreme caution around
spinning fans or you may get a hair cut at the same time.

 

[Adam]

As you bring the engine to TDC you should be able to see marks on the timing cover. Line up the balancer mark with 10 before (add a little for 12 degrees). Insure your dist rotor is pointing at #1... confirm wiring order & direction of rotation, counter clockwise. With the engine sitting in this position hook up a timing light to the battery and #1 plug wire. Turn the ignition to the run position, but dont start/crank the engine. Slowly turn the distributor, back then forward, while holding the trigger on the timing light; when it fires you are good to go. Tighten the dist and attempt to start, then check timing while running. You can/should install a timing tape on the balancer so you can set the timing at 36 degrees total advance at 2400 rpm or so... or use a timing light with a degree dial.

 

[dmc8163]

I have always been under the impression that the proper distance for a fan from the radiator was 1" regardless of there being a shroud. Thus explains the spacer with my fan/clutch combination. So I get the drift that was not such a great idea which is actually a good thing. As I mentioned previously I cut the fan spacer size in half after the first incident. Sure enough in the second incident the damage to the radiator was roughly have as bad as the first time. Also important I think is that I installed a March pulley system before this all happened. Their belt is tightened with a bolt allowing me to over tighten the belt. I have not removed the belt and the new pulley to see if I have damaged the water pump shaft. I will do so asap and thank you for the tip to use a dial indicator instead of a "best guess."

 

[dmc8163]

Adam, you're a genius (at least to me). It never occurred to me to use the timing light like this. Brilliant. Perfect. I did try to put a timing tape on my chrome balancer. It was a disaster. I couldn't line the tape up with the TDC mark because of "crap" in the way and it wouldn't stick to the chrome. Eventually I ended up saying many bad words and the tape was in a useless crumpled heap. I know, try again.

 

[moparleo]

Dave, You got it right. Start with the dist hold down bolt snug but loose enough to turn distributor by hand. Make sure that the idle speed screw , (not the mixture screws) is backed out allowing the butterflies to be completely closed. Start by going one turn to the right on the idle speed screw. Using a remote starter or having someone cranking the engine with the key, rotate the distributor slowly until she starts. Now rotate the distributor slowly until the engine idle smooths out. Check the timing with a timing light at idle speed ( around 7-900 rpms ) this is also after the choke has opened completely if automatic type. It should read close to 10-12 degrees. As Adam pointed out, you should install timing tape to the balancer. Before you install the tape, you need to verify TDC. After establishing actual TDC, install the timing tape with the zero mark at the pointer. Some times balancers have slipped or are marked incorrectly. These things are rare but you might as well eliminate them now rather that find out later that they are incorrect. When you get it to idle smoothly you can check the total timing by raising the rpms to about 2500 rpms and recheck the timing at that speed. It should read around 34-36 degrees. This is your total timing. The idle speed timing is you initial timing. I know it sounds like a lot of stuff but it isn't really and we need to start from the beginning to get accurate results. Let us know how this goes first and then we can continue to diagnose your other problems.