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Fuel Injection Throttle Body and Fuel Tank Suggestions...PLEASE!!!

1970GranCoupeCo

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Greetings,

What fuel tank model and manufacturer...and...fuel injection system do you recommend???

I am FINALLY getting back to playing with...and sinking more money into the Barracuda

It is a 1970 California car with a 340 and LA-727.

The engine currently has a 2000s vintage Holley ProJection 4Di throttle body style FI unit and the fuel system is currently routed via the following:

-Stock fuel pickup in the tank (this of course means there are no internal baffles)
-Rubber FI fuel line through an inline filter
-External inline fuel pump supplied by Holly in the ProJection kit
-Inline fuel filter
-Steel stock style 5/16 fuel lines running up the passenger side to the ProJection
-Steel stock style 5/16 vapor line running back down the passenger side to the gas tank
-The California style vapor gas tank system is removed (vapor tank in trunk is still there for looks)

The ProJection never really worked that good possibly because of the external fuel pump of my lack of tuning ability.

So I am interested in a throttle body fuel injector unit so what unit does the Collective believe is the best?

I need to go with a for-real submersed fuel pump.

So...what would you recommend for the correct system?

Should I run a 1/2 in fuel line only on the passenger side and delete the two fuel lines on the passenger side?

THANKS for your advice!!!
 

Chryco Psycho

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I have experienced numerous problems with earlier Holley FI systems like Projection but I know a number of people running the Sniper systems with great reviews .
Tanks seems to have the best tank with in tank pump & properly baffled tank .
3/8" line for feed with a 5/16 return would work well although 5/16 should handle enough flow for the small block .
 

1970GranCoupeCo

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Thanks Psycho,

So doing some research on the Sniper...

It needs a feed line and a return line (I was hoping for a single fuel line). It has a fuel regulator in the throttle body. Holley specifies 3/8 for both.

Is there a Holley unit that has the mechanical kick down linkage provision or do I buy the generic unit and then buy the linkage attachment?

It seems Tanks Inc has a fuel tank with the submersible pump and the appropriate fuel pump and return inlet.
 

70chall440

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As I responded to you on CC.com, I recommend Tanks Inc for the tank, pump and sending unit. I wrote this for someone else on CC.com, perhaps there is something that you might find helpful.

What system you use is entirely up to you, each has its advantages and limitations. I am not sure what your experience is with EFI, so if I say something you know, my apologies.

There are a number of main issues here that require consideration and ultimately make a decision on, however in general is comes down to the EFI type, system, the fuel system, and the electrical system.

THE EFI TYPE - There are 2 types of EFI, direct port injection (DPI) and throttle body injection (TBI).

1. Direct port injection uses a modified intake or one purposely made to accept injectors and a fuel rail. These are very efficient and are used in all modern cars today. The intake remains dry meaning that no fuel enters the intake itself, rather fuel is sprayed directly into each cylinder.

2. Throttle body injection (AKA TBI) has injectors installed into the throttle body itself (usually with some other sensors as well) and sprays fuel into the intake much like a carb would. They are popular because you can use the same intake you used with a carb.

THE EFI SYSTEM - there are as you have discovered many different systems on the market, so much so that it makes it very difficult to make a coherent decision and given that none of them are exactly cheap, no one wants to make the wrong decision. In general, there are basically 2 types of EFI;

1. Basic (aka self-learning): This would be like Fitech or a FAST EZ system. In essence you bolt it on, connect the wires, answer some questions into the handheld and go. The system will learn as you drive. As far as I know, there are not any self-learning EFI direct port injection systems, all I have seen are throttle body designs. It’s worth noting that pretty much all EFI systems you look at will have a self-learning feature, however in a basic system that is all you have/get and you cannot make any changes directly. This is not an issue on a stock or mild engine, however an engine with a big cam, high compression, etc. may not do well with a basic system because the computer cannot tune correctly.

PROs - easy to install and connect, relatively inexpensive. Computer/controller is typically very small and easy to mount/hide and the wiring is very simple, Fitech needs 4 wires to run.

CONs - not as efficient as a direct port system, any problem affects the entire system (throttle body). In general, they are not as efficient or responsive because they normally only control fuel although there may be some systems that can integrate spark control.



2. Advanced - This would be like a Holly HP or some of the FAST systems wherein you have a fairly large computer and have to tune the computer with a laptop and perhaps a dyno. An advanced system can be used on a TBI or DPI type system, but is always found on DPI systems.

PROs - very comprehensive and able to be tuned to any engine setup and/or performance goal. Much more tunable and configurable. Typically, these systems are set up to control spark as well as fuel in addition to the fuel pump, fans, and AC. Some of these systems also can integrate into dash mounted control panels that will provide a wide range of data and even show various gauges. They are much more versatile overall and can control a wide range of functions, additionally they allow you to install specific tunes for specific conditions and can adapt to changes to the engine.

CONs - More expensive generally, computer is significantly larger and can be a challenge to mount in a classic car but certainly not impossible. They do require more understanding to make work well and in ideal situations you would want to tune the vehicle on a dyno, however this is not mandatory, it just takes longer to do it manually.

THE FUEL SYSTEM. This is the most discussed and misunderstood aspect of EFI. There is a lot of misinformation roaming around the internet and on forums, but more so there are a lot of DIY people out there who make something work initially and claim success, however in many cases these cobbled together systems are fraught with issues and problems that in many cases case people to hate EFI.

The biggest issue with EFI fuel systems revolves around the return line. There are systems on the market which are marketed with the “no return line required” statement. However, in almost everyone of them, once you get it and read the instructions you will find a statement saying “return line highly recommended”. While, it is possible to put a returnless system in, it is not optimal and comes with issues.

There are 3 types of EFI fuel systems out there;

  • Fuel command style systems – this is a system where a component is installed into usually the engine compartment where the fuel line from the normal fuel pump to the carb is rerouted to the fuel command system at low pressure. The command center turns the fuel into high pressure and a line is run from that to the EFI system. The return line from the EFI system is run back to the command center. The advantage of this system is that it is the least evasive system on the market, allows the standard fuel system to be used, and does not require return lines or a new fuel system. The down side to this type of system is that the command center is pretty large and does take up some room.
  • External fuel pump system – in this system, you have a fuel pump mounted under the car somewhere along with a pre and post filter. In most cases this requires new fuel lines (feed and return) and the stock fuel pump is removed and eliminated. The advantage of this system is that it is relatively easy to install, if the pump ever has issues it is easy to replace. The down side to this style is that the pumps tend to make some noise and they do not last as long because they get hot and of course they are subject to road damage.
  • Internal pump system – this is the most often used system and by far the most desirable. This places a high-pressure pump into the tank where it can remain cool as well as reduce a lot of the noise. The down side is that to replace them can some times be an issue depending on the application.
2 other issues involved here fuel lines and filters.

FUEL LINES – Fuel lines for an EFI system must be rated for a high pressure (EFI can run 60+ psi whereas a carb system runs around 7 psi). Steel lines will work as may aluminum lines (some manufacturers state aluminum cannot or should not be used), also steel braided or EFI rated nylon braided line). Of course, the appropriate ends must be used with whatever line is used.

FILTERS – EFI requires a very clean system and most systems demand that you use a 40-micron pre-filter and a 100-micron post filter. Failure to use the appropriate filter will result in the failure and potentially the destruction of the EFI system.

THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM. Many thinking about installing an EFI system do not think about the electrical system, however EFI demands clean steady power to operate correctly. The old 60 Amp alternator with original wring will most likely not suffice, or suffice for very long. It is usually recommended that at least a 100 Amp alternator be used, but to really know what to install, you need to determine what the electrical needs are.



There are other aspects of installing and using EFI but none of it is super difficult, it just takes some careful thought and approach.
 

1970GranCoupeCo

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70Chal

THANK you for your help...greatly appreciated.

I will report back with my experience and I will do a burnout in your honor!!!
 

1970GranCoupeCo

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OK...so here is my Christmas wish list...

Fuel tank
Fuel Tank System, 1970-74 Cuda

Fuel Injection system without fuel line kit:
Sniper EFI System 4150

Distributor for spark control:
HyperSpark EFI Distributor, Chrysler Small Block 273/318/340/360

Spark plug wires because new distributor is HEI unit.
Taylor Cable 98087 Taylor ThunderVolt 50 10.4mm Spark Plug Wire Sets | Summit Racing

Now I need to plum the system up...it will need a fuel feed line and a return.

I currently have the existing steel 5/16 fuel line that I might be able to use as the return line. Is 5/16 sufficient to use as a return when the engine is at idle?

Regarding steel pre-bent fuel lines. Is thee a manufacturer who has pre-bent lines that already have the AN fittings on the ends?

I do not really like the looks of steel braid because I want more of the stock look so I guess I will need to go with nylon braid AN6 lines.
 

1970GranCoupeCo

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Does the Snipe 4150 come with the appropriate bracket for the small block throttle cable and shift linkage?

Also in the past I installed a LS1 in my 1955 Chevy and I used a LS9904 GM pressure regulator with integral filter. It made for a very clean installation in that only one fuel line was needed to be run to the engine compartment. Will the Sniper work with that unit and the return port capped?

Universal Filter-Regulator Kit
 

70chall440

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OK...so here is my Christmas wish list...

Fuel tank
Fuel Tank System, 1970-74 Cuda

Fuel Injection system without fuel line kit:
Sniper EFI System 4150

Distributor for spark control:
HyperSpark EFI Distributor, Chrysler Small Block 273/318/340/360

Spark plug wires because new distributor is HEI unit.
Taylor Cable 98087 Taylor ThunderVolt 50 10.4mm Spark Plug Wire Sets | Summit Racing

Now I need to plum the system up...it will need a fuel feed line and a return.

I currently have the existing steel 5/16 fuel line that I might be able to use as the return line. Is 5/16 sufficient to use as a return when the engine is at idle?

Regarding steel pre-bent fuel lines. Is thee a manufacturer who has pre-bent lines that already have the AN fittings on the ends?

I do not really like the looks of steel braid because I want more of the stock look so I guess I will need to go with nylon braid AN6 lines.

You can use the 5/16th line as a return line so long as you are not making big power or running it at high RPM. You will set your pressure on the return side not on the feed side. If you are running some large HP, then I would suggest just getting 2 sets of 3/8 lines. I usually make all of my own lines, you are going to need soft lines to go from the tank to the hard lines an from the hard lines to the regulator or fuel rails/input (depending on the type of EFI you are using).

No, I do not believe anyone makes pre-bent lines that are set up for AN but they are easy enough to add by cutting off the bead roll and then putting on a sleeve, nut and then flaring the ends at 37 degrees.
 

ctaarman

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Before you go the Sniper route I suggest you look for user videos from guys who have had them in for more than a year. To summarize, if your car didn't run well on a carb, a TB based EFI is not an instantaneous fix. And ( surprising to me) they aren't just set and forget. I almost went Sniper on one of my cars ( not my 'cuda which is bone stock) but after doing the research I purchased an Air/fuel analyzer and am spending the time to really optimize my Holley 4150 double pumper on that car. $200 versus almost $2K to do EFI.
 

70chall440

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While I agree that the modern TB EFI systems are not necessarily "install and forget" they are far better than any carb and they do learn (and adjust). All things being equal (meaning everything is in good working order), changing from a carb to EFI is a near instant fix over many carbs. Sure, you can install an O2 sensor and AF gauge then tweak the carb to get what you are after at a specific RPM level in a specific location with specific weather OR you can go to an EFI system that adapts and if you are really froggy you can get a system that allows you do use software to watch and manipulate and really tune the system across the RPM spectrum and the system will adjust as conditions change.

Look, if you know and love carbs, then so be it, nothing wrong with them per se but they are limited. They work awesome for WOT applications such as race cars and yes they will/do work on a driver but EFI is better in almost every respect. Oh and a EFI system doesn't have gaskets that dissolve due to the crappy gas we have today, they are dry.
 

ctaarman

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@70chal440 in theory you are correct. But the electronics in these aftermarket systems aren't proving to have the same reliability as OEM systems. Putting the electronics directly into the TBI unit sitting on top of a hot engine is far from ideal, as heat has a direct impact on electronics lifetimes. While installing a thermal spacer helps, it is not a cure. And aftermarket AF sensors are another source of failures, even the ones from the better makers.

If something goes wrong with my carb I can likely sputter home. If my EFI goes awry I am stranded. Look up how many have experienced this and written about it. And by the way, I spent 35 years in hi tech and I'm an electrical engineer.

Aftermarket EFI has its advantages. - I just want folks to go in with their eyes wide I open.
 

70chall440

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ctaarman - while I respect your opinion, I would say that nothing is perfect but there are literally thousands of TB systems being used throughout the country. Sensors are sensors, they fail in newer cars (I have replaced many IACs, TPS, etc in my late 90's and early 2000 vehicles).

I am not bad mouthing carbs, I have owned many of them but will not own another if I can help it. A couple illustrated stories I think are appropriate; I have a normal carb 6 pack system on my 70 Challenger for years and every time I wanted to start the vehicle after it had been sitting (which is most of the time) I had to pull the air cleaner and prime it. When I built my 52 B3B (has a 56 Desoto 330 hemi in it) I put a brand new Holley 600 on it and I let the truck sit for probably 3 months, went to drive it and the truck didn't want to stay running (needle and seat issue). I switched both vehicles to EFI and I can go out to the shop right now and start either one.

I see it this way; if you are going to drive your classic car relatively frequently then a carb will be fine but if you let it sit, then it is probably going to experience issues. On top of that, EFI will doing things that a carb cannot such as adjust. Yes, sensors can and do go bad but so do floats, needles and seats, etc. It is true that if your ECU dies you are going to need a tow truck and it is also true that an EFI system can be problematic (like everything) but IMO the benefits outweigh the risks. They are getting better with each passing year and I can say both my Challenger and my B3B never ran better from start, to idle to driving.
 

ACarGuy

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I somewhat looking into this too (struggling with originality and cost considerations) and see Holley has a sending unit replacement pump (with regulator) that drops right in the stock tank and says it doesn't need a return line, it just vents into the tank and says you can use the factory hardline too.

Holley Sniper EFI 12-318 Holley 255 LPH OE Style EFI Fuel Tank Modules

I bought new lines (not installed yet) and wish I would have gone with the 3/8 now but maybe the 5/16 is good enough for lower horsepower (if you know otherwise let me know).
 

70chall440

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In tank pumps like the Holley one are pretty good for engines that produce less than 500HP or so. The 58 psi preset will need to be matched with whatever EFI system you are going to use (check the specs). The 5/16 lines will work for a lower HP engine such as a stock engine. In other words, the drop in pump and 5/16" lines will work fine so long as you pick a corresponding EFI system (matches the psi requirement).
 

Danny Boy

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Need your comments, help and opinions on this combination tank, pump & sender on ebay.
I'm considering purchasing on of these for a relatively stock 340, 4 speed that I'm considering purchasing a TBI system (70 340 Challenger daily driver)
Reputable seller, pump, sending unit & tank???
Pros/Cons???
Cost reasonable?
Does the tank appear stock looking
Appreciate comments especially with those who have had experience with internal pumps vs external.


Hopefully this link works
 

1970GranCoupeCo

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The link worked great. I cannot comment on this particular tank however I am in the process of installing the Holley sniper EFI fuel tank in my barracuda. It's a stamped steel tank that looks like original and the advantage is it comes with internal baffling and a fuel Reservoir tray. The fuel that's not needed from the engine returns back and drops into this tray so the tray is always full of fuel so if you make turns you don't have to worry about the engine coughing. The smallest fuel pump they offer is all you will need. The electric fuel pump has a rubber sleeve around it that reduces the noise so it's relatively quiet. I should be able to get in my system in this week and I will post a show-and-tell for everybody
 

Danny Boy

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Thanks much. Will yours be an internal or external pump?
Lookin forward to seeing your installation and comments
Best
Danny
 
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