Posted this on the FABO site. Any bets on the heat I will incure??? HaHaHaHa

[DTCMMLF]

Opening a can of worms in this thread..... Adminz, fire extingisherz pleaszzzzzz

First, sadly, Mr. Norm has passed! Man was a genius!!!! ( Tribute to a Friend: Celebrating The Life of Mr. Norm Kraus - Mopar Connection Magazine | A comprehensive daily resource for Mopar enthusiast news, features and the latest Mopar tech)

Norm Krause is why all us Dart freaks can drive the GSS 383 and 440 powered Darts, (440-quasi factory Dart.)

Chrysler NEVER produced, for public sale, a 440 powered Dart! PERIOD!
And Mr. Norm was the reason the GSS was built by Chrysler since he fitted (not Chrysler) a Dart at Grand Spaulding Dodge with the first 383, before MOPAR did! (read the above link).

Now I am going to hear the whine of the " I have a Dart with fender tags and documents and such". You do! Got it, but read on. MOPAR did not produce it. Grand Spaulding Dodge did. Norm worked a deal with Chrysler to have certified inspectors, on site in Chicago, to cert the vehicles road worthy so they could be legally sold and insured in the State! Chrysler produced the required 50 Darts with the 440 in them from the factory to qualify for NASCAR racing requirements, if anyone wanted to race them in the circuit. They were titled RACE CAR ONLY and never 'legally' sold to the public. I verified this, though I cannot find the email now, of course, with the retired GM of the Hamtramck plant in Michigan years ago in a discussion on another forum, which was a heated affair!!!!

When I saw the factory GSS, I immediately asked the question, 'Damn, why not a 440? same profile as the 383????"

(And I grew up during this time. I am 73 years young and still dinking with MOPARs!!! Only cars I have ever bought. Lots of Blue Oval Diesels trucks and such, but cars, just Moparz....)


Another link for your reading pleasure: VIDEO: A Quick Look at Mr. Norm's Grand-Spaulding Dodge - Timeless Muscle Magazine

So bring on the heat! But verify, please, your tongue lashing data before you do, please!
Adminz- being nice here!!! Hahahahaha.....

Hawk

 

[NoCar340]

Two things immediately jump out at me.

Right off the bat, the 1969 M-code Darts and Barracudas were factory-produced and came with a warranty. Mr. Norm didn't get all of those cars. They were not labeled as "race cars" but were limited in their option choices (no PS, automatic only) simply due to the limitations of the RB in an A-body.

Second, what do Darts or the 440 have to do with NASCAR? The Dart was not legal for NASCAR due to its wheelbase, and the 440 was a non-entity, since at that time the Hemi was the engine of choice--the Street Hemi debuting in 1966, the same year as the 440.

Age does not equal wisdom. Mr. 73-year-old know-it-all is just plain wrong.

 

[moparker]

Oh snap!!

 

[DTCMMLF]

Well, that was polite enough. I expected some heat. Death threats at the very least!!!!!

So, here goes....

First. READ Grasshopper!
I stated that 'The factory' never produced a 440 powered Dart. Period (except for NASCAR - See below)
Below is an excerpt from an article, by Hemmings that states Chrysler did not produce these vehicles, Hurst did. Something akin to what Norm Krause was doing. Different location, same drill.

The below was excerpted from this Hemmings article (https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/1969-dodge-dart-gts-m-code)

The 440-powered 1969 Dodge Dart GTS was a homologation special, so that Dodge could lay waste to the NHRA's Factory Super Stock classes. Mr. Norm pioneered the fit in a '68 Dart, called it GSS (Grand Spaulding Sport, named for his performance-leaning suburban Chicago dealership), and built more than 50 of 'em; Dodge liked it so much that they co-opted the idea a year later. The Grand Spaulding boys once again engineered it, in deference to their initial efforts, but Dodge chose to send the system out to Hurst Performance research, who could better handle the volumes required. A special K-member, new motor mounts, a couple of block modifications to accept the new mount, plus new exhaust manifolds, oil pan and heat shielding made up the conversion

I said NONE at the factory..... cept for the NASCAR circuit

Next, I could not find that old NASCAR rule book, so I choose the one for this past year, thinking that the rules are stiffer and requirements be tougher since the speeds are sooo much greater!
And I figure this will suffice to make my point.

Dart stats:
wheelbase in inches for a 69 dart. (I highlighted the 108 inch requirement for todays NASCAR.....)

Width :	69.7 in | 1770 mm.
Height :	53.6 in | 1361 mm.
Wheelbase :	111.0 in | 2819 mm.
Front Track :	57.4 in | 1458 mm.

NASCAR Rules:
Section 21 - NASCAR Modifieds (2021)

SAFETY EQUIPMENT (See Section 3 MINIMUM SPECIFICATIONS for additional requirements)

All entrants will be required to run the rules package as described in section 21 or may declare a rule book of choice from the following options.
• Meridian Super Stock 2018 (may use super stock or “modified class tire & wheel”)
• Additional options may be made available as per Meridian Speedway discretion.

21.1 Frame & Chassis 21.1.1 Any OEM Grand American Modified style frame and chassis may be used. Must be complete and tech approved.

21.1.2 An approved manufacturer fabricated front clip may be installed. Must meet the intended OEM specifications as provided by the approved manufacturer and shall meet the prescribed templates as per tech. The current approved manufacturers are Thompson Motorsports & Howe Racing Enterprises. 21.1.2 Minimum wheelbase 108.00 inches (no tolerance). Measuring procedure will consist of the front tires being turned to set the left side wheel base at 108” the right side will then be measured as under or over. 21.2 Roll Cage 21.2.1 Must consist of continuous hoops, minimum 1.75 inch O.D. tubing, with minimum wall thickness of 0.095 inch for main cage, frame-mounted in at least six places, low carbon or mild steel recommended. Must consist of a configuration of front, rear and top hoops connected by tubing on sides or side hoops. 21.2.2 Driver’s head must not protrude outside cage with helmet on. Roll cage must be securely supported and braced with minimum one cross bar in top halo. 21.3 Door Bars 21.3.1 All driver side door bars and uprights must be minimum 1.5 inch O.D. with 0.083 (0.095 recommended) inch wall thickness. Minimum three driver side door bars, parallel to ground and perpendicular to driver, and welded to front and rear of roll cage. 21.3.2 Steel door plate, 18 gauge or 0.049 (0.125 recommended) inch minimum thickness, must be securely welded to outside of driver side door bars and cover area from top door bar to bottom.

So, I stand by my initial message. I am not the Oracle by any means, but I can read and DIGEST what I read!!!!
I will let it go at that. (Admins can put the extingushers back!) Have a good (better) day!

Hawk

 

[moparleo]

NASCAR required stock based suspensions in the 60's Nobody would think of a short wheelbase car back then. Too dangerous, think high speed stability. The 69 Charger has a 117" wheelbase as did the other makers, Talladega's, Chargers, Daytona's. etc. No Taurus's or Camaro's on the big tracks back then.
They don't make big cars today and modern race cars have nothing to do with stock anything except maybe the roof. All custom made from the spindles up to whatever the rules allow.
Only God is perfect so be careful what source you are willing to hang your hat on. Just say that nothing is in stone that a man has made or said.

 

[NoCar340]

Cool story. You're still wrong, but it's a cool story. Let's review:

The Hurst facility did not have the fixtures and welding equipment required to assemble a unibody, nor did they have the moving assembly line, paint facilities, or the sheer size required to build cars. Hurst never built any cars, period. Not to add insult to injury, but the M-code A-bodies were returned to Chrysler for final assembly after the engines were installed. Hurst didn't even complete the build.

Chrysler built every car that was later modified by Hurst, ASC, or any other subcontractor shop they used (and even those they didn't use, for that matter): every single convertible Mirada, Mr. Norm's anything, '81 Imperial limousine, T-top '79 300, M-code and Super Stock A-body, or whatever other model you'd care to insert.

Quoting the 2021 NASCAR rulebook does you no good. Production wheelbases have dramatically shortened in the intervening 51 years and the rules have been adjusted accordingly. NASCAR's wheelbase requirement was 115" through 1980. The rule was changed to 110" in 1981. Only after the 1981 rule change were midsize models allowed to have their wheelbases stretched in order to compete. That's why the shorter tracks weren't filled with Camaros, Mustangs, et al. The Dart's wheelbase wasn't NASCAR-legal until five years after it went out of production. The rules also specified midsize cars; the Dart was a compact by classification.

Before you start yammering on about the NASCAR Grand Touring/Grand American series, recall that those cars were initially limited to 305 cubic inches and never went beyond 366 by the series' demise in 1972. Two-liter Porsche 911s were competitive. Now, I could be wrong but I'm betting the 220lb weight penalty of a 440 over a 340 was not helped by the 2.600" stroke required to get the RB engine under 305 cubic inches. That brings us to...

The 440 was already homologated, since engines did not have to be homologated in the body style used in NASCAR. See: Boss 429. Total Boss 429 Torino/Talladega production: 0 units. Mercury managed to get somewhere between two and four times as many Boss Nines installed in their competing Montego/Cyclone body, for a grand total of 0 built. There were no 429 Mustangs or Cougars on a NASCAR grid in any year.

Not only are you not an oracle, you don't even digest what you say, much less what anyone else says in response.

I stand by my original statement: "Age does not equal wisdom. Mr. 73-year-old know-it-all is just plain wrong." Not only wrong, but defeated by his own weak semantics game in an attempt to appear clever. That's gotta sting.

Game, set, and match. Good day.

 

[DTCMMLF]

NASCAR required stock based suspensions in the 60's Nobody would think of a short wheelbase car back then. Too dangerous, think high speed stability. The 69 Charger has a 117" wheelbase as did the other makers, Talladega's, Chargers, Daytona's. etc. No Taurus's or Camaro's on the big tracks back then.
They don't make big cars today and modern race cars have nothing to do with stock anything except maybe the roof. All custom made from the spindles up to whatever the rules allow.
Only God is perfect so be careful what source you are willing to hang your hat on. Just say that nothing is in stone that a man has made or said.

I agree with much of what you say. I would not have raced a Dart on a NASCAR circuit, but we both know there are fools that might have. Not sure a 7 inch difference would have made a mojor difference back then in the wheel base, but the width surely would have. Code M Darts weighed nearly 3800 pounds. NASCAR weight limits today are around 3450. As noted in one response, they would have probably been nose heavy. The point I was making was that there were no FACTORY produced Darts. Did not say the M coded monsters didn't exist. Chrysler did not assemble them, Husrt did. And junior in his response makes some points. Not too worried about my pride. Got his blood pressure up, I guess. And the last 3 sentences in your response were noted.

 

[70chall440]

DTCMMLF - out of curiosity, what is your evidence that Hurst built these cars or better said that the factory did not?

Just to be clear, you are saying that Hurst assembled the entire car? Perhaps it would be helpful if you provided an explanation or some details, I for one would really like to know.

As to the NASCAR aspect, sorry but I am having a hard time believing that part. Not saying it isn't true but doesn't seem right.

 

[NoCar340]

And junior in his response makes some points. Not too worried about my pride. Got his blood pressure up, I guess.

"Junior" made every single point that disproves both your original statement and your further argument--in 15 minutes with simple internet searches that anyone can verify. You've provided neither a counter-argument to any one of them, nor any verifiable evidence beyond your own disjointed ramblings and one Hemmings article. It must be because you're still wrong, and will remain so until you're able to change well-documented history.

If "junior" was meant to lessen the validity of my responses, it doesn't. You might think it does, but once again you're in error because you got schooled. If it was meant as an insult, it wasn't taken as such. I'm exactly like my father--smarter than you. I learned decades ago to admit when I'm wrong. You still haven't with almost a quarter-century greater experience in life... how sad for those around you.

Don't give yourself too much credit about raising my blood pressure, either. Easily disproving bad information is neither upsetting to nor exciting for me, nor is battling wits with the unarmed. I only used bold type because you did, and for the same reason: Both of us were adding emphasis to how incredibly amiss your repeated assertions are.

Not sure a 7 inch difference would have made a mojor difference back then in the wheel base

All A-body Darts had a wheelbase of 111" except the '71-'72 Demon and '73-'76 Sport, although I'm not able to verify that was the case on your planet. Then again, I guess it's possible that NASCAR's intergalactic division mandated a factory-minimum 118" wheelbase rather than Earth's 115".