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Headers hitting my idler arm

Righty Tighty

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Hey all,

I installed TTI headers on my car a while back, and not long ago when I was rebuilding the front end, noticed a divot in the header just above the idler arm. Looking at the divot, it's clear that the idler arm caused it from being far too close. My experience with the fitment of TTI headers has been great in the past, so I'm thinking it's an issue with the suspension sagging, or I need a spacer between the engine mounts and K frame. New shocks, new engine mounts. The divot was there before rebuilding and the spacing is still very tight after the rebuild.

I added spacers on my Scamp a while back to help with clearance with great results, so I'm thinking that might be the route I go. I'm wondering if anyone has had this issue with their E body? I'll update with pics shortly.
 

Righty Tighty

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Here are a couple pictures. You can also see that the oil pan is pretty close to the center link. 318 car that now has a 440....does the 440 sit lower??

F7A44A50-E230-4BB2-8360-BDD9196E75FA.jpeg


C4044CFC-A562-4AA7-8FB9-ED66B5F36ED7.jpeg
 

Steve340

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If you have replaced the engine mounts the new ones might not be quite as thick perhaps.
This would lower the engine a small amount.
 

Righty Tighty

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Thanks. I actually had the problem before replacing the mounts and I thought the old ones may have been the culprits, and with the new ones, it sits just about exactly where it was before.
 

Steve340

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If you know how to check driveline angle I would do that.
Some spacing up would most likely resolve the issue and not affect anything else.
 

Ronbo73

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It looks like the idler arm may be the culprit. Is that the factory idler arm? Can you compare the two if possible? Is the mount on the subframe bent upward maybe? I would love to hear what the issue is because I am installing a 440 into a 318 Barracuda and will now keep and eye out for this.
 

Righty Tighty

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If you know how to check driveline angle I would do that.
Some spacing up would most likely resolve the issue and not affect anything else.
I don't know how to check driveline angle, but I see if I can look it up. I do remember when I shimmed the engine on the Scamp, I used 3/16" plate and that gave me plenty of room while still having clearance under the hood.

It looks like the idler arm may be the culprit. Is that the factory idler arm? Can you compare the two if possible? Is the mount on the subframe bent upward maybe? I would love to hear what the issue is because I am installing a 440 into a 318 Barracuda and will now keep and eye out for this.
The idler arm is new and came in the front end kit from PST. I noticed this problem before I replaced the old one, but unfortunately I tossed it already. The mount didn't look bent at all, in fact I had the whole K frame out and everything looked pretty good.
 

Chryco Psycho

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You can grind out / oval either the lower or upper hole for the idler arm bolt & tip the arm down a little
 

Steve340

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Generally most cars are manufactured with the engine/trans about a 2 or 3 degree slope down from the front to the rear.
If your car is lower than this it could indicate the motor is sitting lower.
I got some replacement engine mounts and they were about a 1/4 inch shorter than the original ones.
The centre link of the steering should be parallel between the pitman arm and idler arm - across the car and from side to side. It should also swing in the same arc as you turn from lock to lock. If it all looks "square" it probably is not the problem.
I would not modify the idler you may well cause a problem in the steering.
Do some checks and go to the source of the problem.
 

Challenger RTA

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Righty Tighty You may have to go Lefty lossey. Ding the header for clearance.Just close you eyes it won't hurt as much! I know it's just not right! but it might have to be done. really won't effect performance. never see or feel it at 65 mph and above. First I would contact TTI to see what thy say about fitment. Good PR thy would send you another set or at lest the one side.​

 

Righty Tighty

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Righty Tighty You may have to go Lefty lossey. Ding the header for clearance.Just close you eyes it won't hurt as much! I know it's just not right! but it might have to be done. really won't effect performance. never see or feel it at 65 mph and above. First I would contact TTI to see what thy say about fitment. Good PR thy would send you another set or at lest the one side.​

Man, it really pains me to even think about taking a hammer to it. You don’t think a shim would take care of the problem without causing other issues?

I might get in touch with TTI just to see what they say, but I’d be very surprised if they sent out another set or side.
Factory heads and motor mounts ?
Footnote #39
Yes on both.
 

Challenger RTA

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Are the tie rod sleeves correct? Longer or shorter would move the center link forward or back. But that changes the geometry. Not saying to do it.or if it would work. Just a thought looks like there's not enough room any how.
 

Chryco Psycho

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I have ovaled 1hole a little to tip the arm in the past , it will not hurt geometry .
 

moparleo

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The first thing to do was to mock it up and check fit.
It looks like it did more than just touch the tube.
On any install first follow the mfg. instructions and second contact them if there is a problem right away.
Looks like too late for number 2 as far as header damage.
I don't think the advice was to just swing a hammer. The finish is already damaged.
Removing the header and bracing the tube to prevent more damage and then using the ball end of a ball Pein hammer on the damaged area and striking it with a non ferrous heavier weight hammer, like brass would put a softer, rounder area of clearance that you could then use some type of heat resistant finish to seal that spot against corrosion. You will have to do something anyway since it is already damaged.
Footnote # 39 on TTI's website says to verify that the engine is sitting squarely in the engine bay and gives you the factory dimensions. This will show you where the clearance issue lies.
Whenever you have to use shims, washers, spacers etc... to get a part to fit something is an immediate red flag to stop and recheck. Kind of like torqueing the mains down and not noticing that the crank now binds until after you complete the build.
 

Ronbo73

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Did you change the metal motor mount brackets or are they the factory originals? Maybe they are not the correct dimensions.
 

Righty Tighty

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Are the tie rod sleeves correct? Longer or shorter would move the center link forward or back. But that changes the geometry. Not saying to do it.or if it would work. Just a thought looks like there's not enough room any how.
They came with the kit I bought for 70-74 Cuda, and they matched the old ones I replaced that were on the car when I bought it. Now, are they correct...? I really don't like to use the word "assume," but.... I assume they are?
The first thing to do was to mock it up and check fit.
It looks like it did more than just touch the tube.
On any install first follow the mfg. instructions and second contact them if there is a problem right away.

Looks like too late for number 2 as far as header damage.
I don't think the advice was to just swing a hammer. The finish is already damaged.
Removing the header and bracing the tube to prevent more damage and then using the ball end of a ball Pein hammer on the damaged area and striking it with a non ferrous heavier weight hammer, like brass would put a softer, rounder area of clearance that you could then use some type of heat resistant finish to seal that spot against corrosion. You will have to do something anyway since it is already damaged.
Footnote # 39 on TTI's website says to verify that the engine is sitting squarely in the engine bay and gives you the factory dimensions. This will show you where the clearance issue lies.
Whenever you have to use shims, washers, spacers etc... to get a part to fit something is an immediate red flag to stop and recheck. Kind of like torqueing the mains down and not noticing that the crank now binds until after you complete the build.
You are 100% correct.

When I installed them, I did check for clearance issues, but I must not have noticed how close that tube was to the idler arm. As far as using shims, I guess I've heard so many people talking about poor header fitment that it seems normal to have to make modifications. I thought it was possibly that this was a common issue with E bodies OR, I had something in that assembly bent/missing/installed incorrectly that was causing it to sag.

I did go through TTI's footnotes before buying the headers, and #39 led me to believe I had to have either the engine out or transmission removed to reference the center of the crankshaft. I suppose I could measure from the center of the fan and/or water pump?

I think for now, I'm going to add a 3/16" space under the motor mount to prevent further damage, and perform a proper repair when I can get to it. I agree, the damage is such that it shouldn't be left as-is.
Did you change the metal motor mount brackets or are they the factory originals? Maybe they are not the correct dimensions.
That's a very good question that I don't know the answer to. The previous owner had a shop do the swap from 318 to 440, and this was 25+ years ago. The last time I had the engine out, I replaced the motor mounts, and when I was shopping for new ones, I poured over pictures to make sure I had the correct mounts. In that process I also saw lots of pictures of 440 brackets that matched the ones I had, so I felt confident I had the right ones.

I'm pretty new to this and still have a lot to learn....
 

Mopar Mitch

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Another option is to slightly grind down the idler arm where it hits the header tube.. I've done it ... no problem .. as well as dinged the headers however needed.... and i run the longer idler (C-body) and pitman (fast-ratio) arms... a simple fix.

I'll agree that different motor mounts can be an issue... I've witnessed that myself.... and giggled them a little to better fit.
 
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