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Vacuum advance

ColoradoCuda

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I know this has been asked 1 million times, but I have yet to find a satisfactory answer. I have a 71 Cuda with a very stock 383 and an Edelbrock 750 CFM carb. Should I go with the ported or manifold vacuum for my vacuum Advance? Also, any recommendation for initial timing with the vacuum Advance disconnected?
 
Such a simple question and so many answers. Mine would be. It would depend on how the engine is built and used, if advance is used at all. Requires Deep thought.:popcorn:
 
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I would use ported and at least 6-10 initial.
I had interesting problem when I installed Fitech on my 340.
The gas mileage actually went down and I was stunned.
I found out the port on the Fitech throttle body is too high, and the vacuum advanced never kicked in at light throttle.
I switched to manifold vacuum and it fixed that issue and the gas mileage improved, as expected.
So my advice is, start with ported, and check it.
 
Assuming by Stock 383 you also mean a stock points type distributor, than yes, the ported vacuum port that opens up just after the primary throttle plates open up, is the vacuum port to use. At idle, you typically want no vacuum advance and full vacuum advance at highway speeds.
 
manifold vacuum
Manifold vacuum give a quicker response.
typically want no vacuum advance and full vacuum advance at highway speeds
This is best for smoother transition and drivability. Just some of my 2¢, Others know how it works.

Only difference between ported and

manifold vacuum is it idle you're not

adding any ignition timing if you're on

your ported port.

I have some other sense. I give as it goes along. Or I could give long explanation. That I might do if thing go a muck.
 
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The only difference between
ported and manifold itself is that
manifold adds timing at idle while
ported does not. If you have your
carburetor setup right and not too much
throttle exposure. So which one should
you use. Where should you hook your
vacuum line for your vacuum advanced
canister? Onto your carburetor ported or
manifold? Then to clear up one more
misconception about all this. A lot of
will move their vacuum line from
ported to manifold, manifold deported and
say well it runs better. Either way know if
you go to ported. You have to realize for
manifold you took ignition timing and
took it away until you have enough
throttle input. What you have to do is
advance your initial mechanical timing.

Make whatever assessment you want to
make and ultimately it's your choice.
What you choose to use.
Most all street engines
that have mild cams or stock cams work
the best on ported vacuum, They don't
require a whole lot of ignition timing
at idle. Because the dynamics of the
camshaft is just making really good
cylinder pressures at idle. Versus a high
lift cam with a lot of overlap. Doesn't
have as much cylinder pressure at idle
and requires more initial advance. If
you try and run manifold vacuum on a
mild cam or stock style engine. What
you're going to have happen. There will
be so much ignition timing being added
in from that vacuum advanced canister. That in order for your carburetor to idle. At the know ideal rpm. The throttle has to close way too much on the carburetor or you need to have way too little initial mechanical advance.
Then when you step on the throttle hard. You take that timing and throw it out
the window. You know just your
engine responds, very lazily off the line.
because now you don't have enough
ignition timing. So with ported you can
mitigate a lot of those issues. Of
course there is a dynamic relationship
between your ignition timing and the
functionality of your carburetor at idle

Again remember ported we need to add
a little bit more initial mechanical
timing. What you're looking for on your
carburetor settings. Is a throttle
position in between the point of where
your transfer slots are exposed. You
have a little bit of vacuum signal on
those. But not so far that you get to the
point. That is actually your ported port for your vacuum advance. If you get too much
throttle exposure and you're seeing
vacuum on that port at idle then you
have too much throttle exposure. Then you need to increase your initial mechanical timing.
If you go too far.
which most can easily do with full
manifold vacuum. You will see that now no
transfer slots are exposed. The
purpose of those transfer slots in
conjunction with your accelerator pump.
Is to handle the transition from idle to
your main jet circuit. They work a lot
better if they have a little bit of
vacuum signal. Because fuel is already
flowing. When you hit the throttle you know it just continues to draw more from that circuit.
If you have no exposure at idle. Basically you have a flat spot, between the time it takes from fuel to get going on that circuit before it gets to the engine. That's kind of
the form and function of how all this
works in a Holley and Edelbrock are
actually exactly the same. In this regard
the ported port. On Edelbrock
being up here because it's above the
throttle blades, in the same way it also
has transfer slots. You can set
everything up with the same mentality
between the both carburetor styles.
There's really no difference. I also
want to make it clear that ported vacuum
is not the end-all be-all.
there are compromises you have to make
with ported vacuum. You know even
though the advanced. (The initial
mechanical timing relatively to an idle.
The advanced is still a little late and
it's going to favor a richer idle
mixture. )
You have to make on both sides. I'm not
really in favor with either of them. But
for street engines I've seen that ported
vacuum works really well.

That's maybe why I think the Thermo quad. It was a stroke of geniuses. Didn't have to do much to it. It would adjust to it's demands. It would purr like a kitten, then you woke it up it would roar like a lion.
 
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IMO simple as RPM rises the engine needs more advance so connecting to the manifold gives the most advance at idle when vacuum is highest & dropping as the throttle is opened so it is going the wrong way as more throttle is added meanwhile mechanical advance is going the other way increasing with RPM .
Personally I don't use vacuum advance at all , , I run a lot of timing at idle increasing with rpm through Mech advance using a short curve , I have made the best HP on the Dyno & mileage this way .
I have also tuned using EFI & Computer when timing curve can be adjusted every 250 RPM & found similar results .
My $.02 , take it or leave it .
 
The simplest answer can be found on Google; 6-10 degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC).

If wanted, here is a little more information on timing our big blocks; Since the OP is working with a STOCK 383 we'll stay with that. Although these points will apply to many applications.

First off, the factory set the timing on these cars NOT for optimum performance, but for the safety of the engine. They had to be very conservative in the specs because they knew there would be crap gas thrown in, that there would be heavy loads such as 4 adults and their luggage (yes, even in a RR or Charger), that the cars would see every conceivable driving condition and atmosphere, and on and on.

So, the timing is very conservative by necessity. For those that KNOW how to drive these cars properly and keep good gas in them, there are real benefits to optimizing the timing.

Our big blocks whether stock or modified absolutely LOVE a fast curve and a lot of lead at idle. The bigger the cam, the more lead they will like, or more accurately; need. But we are talking stock in this.

Actually, discussing the initial setting is the tail wagging the dog. TOTAL timing is the key and then you work backwards from there to get the initial AND the amount of mechanical curve. Typically, stock big blocks will like something in the range of 32* to 36* of TOTAL (as long as it doesn't ping in high gear under load). Then you see what the engine likes for idle timing (and still not hit the starter when cranking hot) and then you know what the curve is. But that often requires shortening the slot on the advance. Although not difficult, most won't tackle it so they will be left with compromises. Much like the factory when making these decisions although for different reasons.

Direct Connection and Mr Gasket used to offer lighter advance springs for our distributors and for good reason. Re-curving our distributors has always been one of the first 'mods' we made to our big blocks. A faster curve rate and optimum total can really wake up a big block. But the advance rate HAS to be tailored to the particulars of the combo: rear gear ratio, stick or auto, 87 or 93 octane, etc..... Specific details that the factory could not always tune for in each individual combo, so they went with the safest settings.

With the 3.91s in my Cuda, I have as much initial as I can get by with and not hit the starter when hot starting. Well, maybe hit the starter a little, but still start. My current set up is 24* intial, (it would like a little more initial, but the starter won't take it) all in by 1,600 with a 34* total. I have had combos where I used to lock the timing all in and have a switch to leave the ignition off, start cranking, then turn the ignition on to start. But I prefer to recurve the distributor.

For stock, something like 15* intial, all in by 2,500 would be a good start IF the owner wanted to make the appropriate mods to the distributor (and monitor the results for issues). Otherwise, just stay with the factory settings.

And ALL street big blocks benefit from vacuum advance. It is not necessary, but is beneficial. And that is adjustable from the factory, too. You can put the right size allen through the nipple to adjust the spring pressure and thereby when it pulls the additional timing in. There used to be different cans available with different amounts of timing, but now you have to modify what you have and that is a bit of a pain. But adding about 10* of vacuum advance at cruise makes for a more efficient, cleaner running engine. And a tiny bit of fuel economy too as if we cared.

WOW! That is one long post and doesn't even cover it all.







Oh, and I almost forgot.......................use ported vac just like the factory. Manifold sourced vacuum is ONLY used as a band-aid to cover up for a poorly set up distributor.

.
 
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Everyone always repeats the 36 deg total number.
I realize that may give max HP with race gas, but has anyone ever run this on a driver?
I'm in FL, so it's hot, and only used 89 since I drive my car and ended up with 28 (before vacuum) or it would ping.
 
Did you verify the accuracy of your timing marks to actually KNOW that your timing is at 28*? And that is not to say that there is anything wrong if in fact it is at 28*. 28* may well be the best possible total for your combo and circumstances.

My point being that most guys use the tab on the timing cover and the groove on the balancer to time their engine and do not verify their accuracy. So, despite what the factory pieces tell you, the ACTUAL timing may be somewhat different. When we raced, we just set the timing where we got the best results and marked that location. But most guys are not going to the dyno or test and tune at the track, nor are they going to verify the accuracy of their timing marks.

So actually, an even wider range of possible total timing may be in order given the variation in production items and the preferences of the particular combo, something like 28* to 38*. But the 32* to 36* is usually ball park enough for casual adjustments.

Most of my combos seem to like a verified total of about 32*. I always use 91 or 93 octane. But I can see where lower octane would likely like less total. Particularly in hotter environments and/or under heavier load. There is no 'one size fits all' in any of this. Only generalizations.

.
 
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Good point, I never did get around to verifying TDC with the mark on the balancer.
Just started at what showed 36 and reduced it until pinging went away, and another 2 deg for margin.

So I guess it's possible the starting point was off.
 
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