SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!

[Cazbah362]

resq32 and ECS - Thank you, you do very nice work. I feel your explanation of the Survivor VS. Ground Up Restored are pretty clear. I am working on a ground up "modified" 1970 Barracuda. Reason I call it a modified is the fact I will not put it back to all original, I may add items like disc brakes, frame supports and a 5.7. However I respect the folks who have ability, time and money to set these cars back. Enjoyable read

 

[ECS]

.........keeping all of the original parts but just cleaned them up........

Keeping all the original parts was necessary for Restoring the car back to its original condition. I don't know if MOPARLEO is saying that being pressure washed (for instance) magically converted the components back to Assembly Line condition! I was hoping he would elaborate how the parts pictured below were "cleaned" to look like a brand new assembly. What cleaning process would provide the transition of the parts in the first picture to the second picture?

What "cleaning and detailing" processes would you use to get from this..........

.....to this?

 

[a68postcar]

first of all' I'd like to say welcome to ECS. the skill level and the commitment to your trade is obvious, and I salute the effort. and, I know from which I speak. I must tell you that although the cars(and trucks) that I do are usully only referred to as a "restoration" by the owner. I'm a body guy. I just clean 'em up and paint "em. having said this, I also know what the difference between the so called "restoration" and the "reference restoration". the term "survivor" means just that. if you find an untouched survior in a barn/shed/backyard, if it dont run, and you have to build motor or trans or rear or anything else, it is not a survivor. now i do agree that the #'s matching thing is very good to have, and if you can use the block, case, whatever, then you are at best a reference resto. we've all seen that roadrunner at the car show as a survivor. and there are some out there. i'm pretty sure that i personally have seen one. but his dad bought it new and the service records were all there to back up everything. very very nice. the car was as beautiful but it really needed fixed back. but you have to question if a restored 69 383 auto runner is worth more one way or the other. the sentimental value is always the line in the sand between the money spent or not. now my personal opinion. although the car has a chance to be a survivor, reference or resto only once chances are good, for me, that i will recommend a resto over all else because, it looks new, it runs new, it drives new, and the owner gets a ride he can be proud of for half the money. again welcome and post on. i've seen the a body somewhere before and it is a beaut. i own a couple and i like 'em.

 

[ECS]

.......it looks new, it runs new, it drives new......

Thanks for your response! The purpose of these Restorations were to emulate what a Factory-Assembly Line vehicle would have represented in 1970. Too many Restorations claim to represent an OE vehicle but are actually very nicely "modified" cars. They do not have the nuances that would have been evident on an Assembly Line vehicle. Roger Gibson once told me that he would have to charge a Customer $500,000 to do what we did with these cars. I can say with certainty that no professional Restoration facility is providing this type of work for their Clientele. The lengths we used to Restore these cars to a true "Assembly Line" vehicle was extremely difficult and tedious.

For example, the two inspection marks on the Transmission Case (pictured below) took approximately 6 hours to re-create. It took over 70 attempts to try and match the hand drawn "2" that was originally documented. What took the Assembly Line worker a split second to draw, took me numerous attempts to match. The paint marking was another difficult mark to re-create. Is was a nightmare trying to get the same look AND have the paint drip stop exactly where the original one had stopped running. The Third Member markings took 14 hours to re-create. I would brush the marks and remove them if they didn't look like the ones originally painted on the unit. I would paint them on and remove them if they were not correct looking......over & over & over again.

Since the inspection markings were worn away on the Challenger components, I simply re-applied them like the Guy on the Assembly Line would have! One time and done. Trying to match someone else's 40 year old "signature" is extremely difficult. Like I said earlier, restoring a "Survivor" to its former status leaves no room for interpretation or freedom in the processes.

 

[moparleo]

Impressive work. So now if anybody wants to restore their Valiant they can use yours for the correct reference car.

 

[ECS]

Impressive work. So now if anybody wants to restore their Valiant they can use yours for the correct reference car.

Thanks for the compliment but remember that the "work" being shown here applies to only this particular Restoration. The inspection markings are correct for this 1970 Valiant. In no way should it be implied that the characteristics of any one vehicle is correct for all Chrysler cars. The restoration processes can be copied but the actual details should be based on what was originally documented on a specific vehicle.

 

[resq302]

Impressive work. So now if anybody wants to restore their Valiant they can use yours for the correct reference car.

Leo,

Yes, they can, if they want to have an exact copy of what Dave's car is. No two cars were the same. Heck, our 69 GTX convertible has many more inspection markings than my charger ever seemed to have. We even uncovered a baby blue hand written word in paint on the front of the driver side axle tube which appears to read ebrake. Why it is there? I have no clue.

 

[ECS]

Here is the progression of a few pictures that show some of the steps what it took to Restore the underside. It took EIGHT MONTHS to make the original undercoating look New again. First, we had to remove ALL oxidation with chemicals. No Sandblasting was done to any of the parts or components on the car! We had to maneuver around all of the original features such as seam sealers, undercoat splatter, paint runs, etc.... Every area had to be perfectly cleaned so the different layers of primers and paints would properly adhere. We matched the original undercoat with a mixture of 4 different petroleum products and then used compressed air to manipulate the mixture to look like it was sprayed by a pressure pot device. I used a Q-Tips to trace the entire perimeter of every square inch under the car! It would take an entire weekend just to do a 2 ft. square area! We used approximately 18 different size artists brushes to be able to complete the process. Trying to work, prime and paint around 40 year old undercoating was miserable. After applying the primers and paint we had to restore the original undercoating. Keep in mind that everything had to blend together to look as if it had never been touched. Here are just a few pictures that should provide some understanding to the "Fun" process!

Step 1 - Removing rust chemically...preserving undercoating and original paint characteristics

Step 2 - Apply "dip coat" (dark grey), then red oxide over-spray, then light gray over-spray. Note - inside every hole on the frame had to be painted - very labor intensive - used an air-brush. Body color comes next.

Step 3 - Apply body color (black) over-spray.

Step 4 - Apply undercoat solution to existing factory undercoating. This illustrates hitting the areas with defined edges (ribs in floor shot at an angle in the assembly plant.)

Step 5- Apply undercoat solution. In this shot covering original undercoating.

Step 6 - Using air nozzle at about 22 psi to manipulate the new undercoating - giving it the heavy texture before it sets up.

Step 7 - Covering large areas with undercoating solution. Using brushes to control the patterns. Note the tube in place of shock...this mimicked the original location of the shock in the plant during undercoating.

Step 8 - Again using air nozzle to manipulate the fresh undercoating to give proper texture.

 

[moparleo]

There was never any question of the process, just the terminology.

 

[resq302]

Dave those pictures look just like what I had to go through when I freshened up the undercoating on the GTX. As soon as I can get to my lap top, I will post some pics of the undercoating on the GTX.

 

[ECS]

WAIT A MINUTE ERROR,ERROR,ERROR you mislabeled the last photo!!! It should read " Valiant -starting point of transformation to a Survivor."

I believe the translation or confusion was on your part Leo. Nowhere was it ever stated that we were restoring a vehicle to turn it into a "Survivor". It is impossible to transform a vehicle into a Survivor like you originally had stated in your quote above. We took a dilapidated old "Survivor" and restored it to look like a Brand New Assembly Line vehicle. We didn't start with a Survivor and turn it into a Survivor!?! Did Juliano put you up to posting these silly comments? (lol)

 

[resq302]

No, Dave. What you started with was what would be called a "Survivor" and then you transformed it into a gorgeous restored OE assembly line quality product. Lets face it, its not like that Valiant or your Challenger regrew metal or anything to make it into something it was prior to the process of oxidation taking place. By the way, that reminds me..... I have to work on that process of making that magical pixie dust so I can do that trick too! My daily driver truck is having some issues and could really use that regeneration process!:laughing6:

 

[Ray]

Perhaps it went down the same assembly line as Christine?

 

[moparleo]

I should have thought of that Ray. I must be losin it.

 

[resq302]

Why not? Some people can regrow metal fender tags, why can't cars fix themselves? At least they claim the fender tag is "real".

 

[ECS]

Here are a few photos of the "GROUND UP" 1970 Challenger Restoration. There we many challenges in making this vehicle look Assembly Line New again but it did not have the same level difficulty as restoring the 1970 Valiant Survivor. The final results of the two cars were the same but the processes to get them there were quite a bit different.

 

[Ray]

You know. These are very nice restorations. Not my cup of tea. Nice to look at, and I can appreciate the time, money, and effort to achieve the end result. I just would rather have a nice driver and enjoy it that way.

 

[resq302]

Hi Ray,

Well, we do drive our cars. As a matter of fact, the only time that we trail them is when the repro bias ply tires are on it and we have to get it to a long distance show. Otherwise, our cars that we have usually have the second set of rims and tires with the radials on it. Makes for much better handling in the corners! However, we do show the car at AACA and other large scale national events so every point we try for must be achieved, hence the two sets of rims and tires. I will say that cleaning the undercarriage as well as the rest of the car over well at least once a month is very theraputic.... at least I think so! lol

 

[ramenth]

Hi Ray,

Well, we do drive our cars. As a matter of fact, the only time that we trail them is when the repro bias ply tires are on it and we have to get it to a long distance show. Otherwise, our cars that we have usually have the second set of rims and tires with the radials on it. Makes for much better handling in the corners! However, we do show the car at AACA and other large scale national events so every point we try for must be achieved, hence the two sets of rims and tires. I will say that cleaning the undercarriage as well as the rest of the car over well at least once a month is very theraputic.... at least I think so! lol

Nice to know.

I've got a concourse restoration planned for my '69 Sport Satellite. Had guys for years tell me not to concourse it or I'd never drive it. They don't know me very well... lol I fixed it once, I can fix it again. And I've hemmed and hawed about this car for years. Driver restoration, modified, restification... finally decided that it's worth going concourse on. I've got other cars that will be modified into what I want 'em to be. This one I'll enjoy as something different in the stable.

 

[resq302]

Hi Ramenth,

That is our feeling too. Half the fun is driving the car, the other half is working on it. It might be as expensive as professional therapy restoring them, but I can guarantee, it is a lot more FUN!

I'd love to see pics of your cars, especially the work a long the way! This way everyone gets to enjoy the trials and tribulations as to what goes into a restoration. Heck, with Dave posting so many pics and techniques from him doing his cars, I know I have picked up countless bits of information as to how a car should be correctly restored to OE specs and the way applications were done to achieve a certain look!